So..how do you do it? I have ran into aces several times and got all my money in. I just am not sure how to lay those hands down!!?? I have always been under the assumption that I have to gamble and will win these bets more than lose pre-flop??

Never, unless they're a huge nit, or you have a specific read.

KK, i don't think I'd ever lay down.. QQ it depends on who's 3-betting me

If I we are 200 bbs+, I can lay down queens to a 4bet fairly easily. 60 bbs or less? Never.
I got trappy with queens against a loose raiser a few weeks back (smooth called instead of 3betting), and then got popped with and a pretty tight player who limped/reraised. The original raiser called, I snap folded. Kings would have been tougher there, but I might have folded them as well.

I've been playing NL for about 6 years and have folded KK preflop exactly twice. Not to brag, but both times my opponent was kind enough to show me his AA. I still remember the details of one of the hands. Villian was a very straightforward, conservative player. Level 1 thinking and betting all they way. It was a 1/3 NL game with effective stacks of 600. Villian was UTG and I was UTG+1

Preflop villian rasies to 12, hero raises to 40, villian raises to 75, hero raises to 150, villian goes all in for 600, hero folds.

Two things to note are that I had a good read on villian and we were 200bb deep. I think you need both things to lay down Kings. With no reads or a more aggrevise villian, or 100bb stacks, I'm calling here.

Another thing to remember is that Kings are only slightly worse than a 4:1 dog against aces. This needs to kept in mind as if you get half your stack in and are facing a shove, you'll be getting 3:1 to call, so you'd have to be almost 100% certain you're beat to fold.

I'm a newbie ...what exactly are you referring to here? Big blinds?

hero has to convince himself that villain is not doing his 3 or 4 bet or shove with anything worse including AK. And there u have it, fold the QQ. And i am being serious.

yes bbs = big blinds

Depends on the action. I rarely get QQ in pre flop live because you usually run into KK or AA. I'm more than happy to play QQ to a flop generally unless I have specific reads. I find KK isn't that much harder than QQ to get away from sometimes. There are times when a villain is raising in a spot where they only have KK or AA usually. If I would fold QQ in said spot, then I fold KK too. These spots are very rare though.

Unless I have reason to believe that a player is particularly agressive - I will almost always fold QQ to a four-bet preflop. Four-bets are rare and usually mean something very strong. The best hand you are likely to see is AKs, and even then you are a coin flip.

CMAR explains it all.

The quick answer is that you don't fold without a terrific read.

However, there is a bit more. When people wonder about folding, it is often because they've needlessly put them in position where they feel forced to call. A classic case is when you raise with KK in EP pf, someone in LP 3bets, you 4bet and they shove over. You're pretty sure they must have AA at this point to 5bet shove. However, you've put 1/2 your stack in already and know it is bad to get half your stack in and fold pf.

The solution is to not 4bet. Against even a range of QQ+, AK, you have a significant edge in card strength to make up for being oop. Just call the 3bet. Just make sure you do this with AA too. You aren't afraid heads up of the flop with AA or KK. If it is multiway, then you're getting your stack in whether you shove pf or call and see a flop. Therefore, just jam it in.

only vs nits.

If a competent Villain raises, u 3bet and the same Villain 4bets... pocket kings are usually in big trouble.

100bb or less I'm usually just putting my chips in but I'm often not happy about it.

Man... where I play these guys 4bet shove with JJ left and right and call huge 4bets with any PP. You guys need to find some new games!

QFT. I've got to find a better game.

No doubt.

I watched a guy stack off with KQo last night against AA.

UTG raise (with shaking hand, no less)

Button 3-bet with with KQo

AA pushes, KQo calls (most likely because he had already committed about half his stack).

Just last weekend I was in a 1-3 game where villain and I were both ~500bbs deep. After a couple of limpers a short stacker open shoved for $70, and I flatted with AA. Villain in the SB thought for about ten seconds before raising to $200. SWEET!

He was a decent TAG who had been there all night like me and I knew he wasn't planning to make any big moves and dump his stack to me. That and the way he though about it and raised, I immediately put him on KK. I 4bet to $500 and he folded! At that point I figured I'd misjudged him and he was just trying to isolate the shortstacker with TT-QQ, but when I flipped over my AA, he showed his KK! I promise I wasn't a playing like a nit either.

His explaination went something like this: As deep as we were, he'd never 4bet in my spot with AK or QQ, so that meant if I played anything like him I must have KK or AA. Since there are six combos of AA and only one combo of KK, he decided he was way behind, wasn't pot commited and made the correct fold. His reasoning seems pretty sound to me.

What is the importance of this? I'm not sure I understand why people keep referring to this. Does this mean you have been in the big blind 500 times? Sorry if it is a dumb question, like I said, I'm a newbie to the forum, and a novice player trying to improve.

Thanks.

No worries

500bbs=500 big blinds. In a 1/3 game a big blind=$3

they were both playing deeper stacks in a 1/3 game. They both had 500bb stacks in front of them=$1.5 k in front of them and were likely playing deeper than most/some of the rest of the table. a 100bb stack in a $1/$3 NL game would be a $300 stack

As far as laying down QQ PF, I had a hand that came up in a game about a yr or so ago. Very first hand of a brand new 2/3 table. EP raised, I 3 bet with QQ, some old man called on BTn, EP guy pushed, I called and got shown KK. Old man called with TT and fropped a set Pretty stupid of me as I should know that in this particular game i'm always seeing KK/AA here. Kinda tough as it was very first hand and nothing on anyone. Will never ever forget this hand obv

500 x the big blind is the stack size. In a 1-3 game that's $1500. The reason people use the big blind terminology is because poker is poker regardless of the stakes, so if we refer to bbs we could be talking about a 1-3 game or a 50-100 game. The math behind the betting should be the same.

You should always include stack sizes when posting a hand, because it affects what the correct decision will be for any given street.

Dude. While people are always happy to help (hey I'm no expert myself) I would recommend you read some of the beginners info to help you get the most out of your posts in here.

A lot of the stuff is relevant for online poker and related software but the basic strat is universal. Stuff like deep/short stack play; position; starting hand selection; what poker books to read; etc etc can be found there.

This entire forum is a plethora of valuable information for all levels of player.

Enjoy

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/32...ers-questions/

I've been slowly sifting through the material...thanks Dude.

Just got home from a 1-2nl game and am completely convinced I jinxed myself.

7 dollar straddle on the button....
i'm in the sb with about 100bbs..I have K,K make it 14 to go.
BB has about 60 bbs and makes it 44 to go.
Villian on button calls
I make it 124 and villian in bb calls and is now all in.
Villian on the button calls and has about 80 dollars left in her stack. She is a fish and plays terrible.
Flop comes k,9,x with two clubs. I'm first off and check. Villian goes all in with her two pair, I call!!! Sweet hugh?? Not so much...turn and river are both clubs...and villian in bb turns over two aces with one being the ace of clubs!! Luckily I got action from the villian in BB to save some chips and actually broke even on the deal.

A few hands later I flopped a set of Kings again!! And lost to runner runner hearts..but I didn't get it all in due to me slow playing my set, thank goodness!

Did I do anything wrong?

Hand #1: No, BB is short so unless you have a read that he is tight and only doing it with AA its ok to get it in there.

Hand #2: Depends on how you played it. If the board is drawy like that then you probably should have bet it and make them PAY to chase, not that anyone would chase a runner runner flush draw.

I'm beginning to suspect a level account. Terre Haute IN is an unusual place, but I'd be surprised that it was about the only place in the US that NL poker is only in the last year taking over from limit in home games. On top of this comment.