Play in a few games where most people are either TAG or very weak. 1/2 game everyone limps and you are on button do I need to have a range here or should I be raising every button with any 2? My thinking is only people I am concerned with are sb, bb, and utg. Thoughts?

I don't understand how raising the button with ATC against a world of limpers is even remotely a good idea? If anything, the more limpers, the tighter our range should be, no?

Why are we only concerned with SB/BB/UTG; I guess we're thinking they're the only ones that could show up with a real hand here? The problem is that hands as strong as AK/QQ (and perhaps even AA/KK, let alone hands like AQs/JJ/TT/etc.) are common limping hands (yet will never fold to a raise).

In HOC, I believe Harrington recommends a very tight range against lottsa limpers, something like AA-TT/AK/AQs. That's probably along the lines of what mine would be.

GcluelessNLnoobG

Wow completely opposite of what I thought the response would be. People are limping in live 100nl with premium hands like that? Feel like that gets you into trouble. I would assume that if you are limping it's because it's worth the $2 but not the $25 I may raise to on the button to win effectively a $18 pot with no callers and if someone calls they are out of position to allow me to win it on the flop or turn.

Really? Do you mean raising range? I would think its quite profitable play drawing hands in position against many limpers....in fact, isn't that the exact situation for drawing hands?

Ps, it depends on who you are against. There are tricky players looking to limp/rr or its who will limp/call with QQ, but if you've been at the table a while and have identified who they are, you can be more cautious. If I have a tight image at a loose table, I find raising hands like medium aces, small pairs and suited connectors, and 2 Broadway hands to be profitable. With high cards I am trying to get heads up and with pairs suited Ax and SCs, I want to play multiway. I'll use what I know about the table to figure out how they will respond to my raise and use that to achieve the desired end. If it seems that I can't tailor their response to the one I want, I will drop or alter that approach.

For example, if a raise to 12 gets me heads up but a smaller raise gets me rred, ill probably limp with my drawing hands.

Do you take into account the amount of pots that will go uncontested that I will pick up just by raising on the button? Against fairly weak and TAG players I have to assume a good percentage of the time I will win the uncontested pot.

I would raise pretty tight, people will NOT fold even to 12 USD raises unless they have two napkins. if you see that they do, then open up your range

It really depends on how many limpers. In your OP you say "everyone limps" which to me indicates you're facing like 5+ limpers. A raise, unless it's a huge one, is never taking this down preflop, and as soon as a single person calls you can expect to go 5+ ways to the flop (all aboard!), which means best hand wins postflop (aggression postflop without the goods is pretty useless in this spot, methinks).

I just think as soon as we get 3+ limpers that it's highly unlikely we're going to get ourselves into uncontested pot (both preflop and postflop) territory.

At a weak tight table I'm raising 99+ t9s+ to 5x bb +1 bb/limper. I don't care if I get called to point is that weak tight players check folds most flops and my hand isn't crap. Yes people limp better than what I'm raising but we can beat them with position.

In general, you should loosen up as your position improves. How much depends on the nature of the opposition. I came across a $1-3, limit Hold 'Em at Sam's Town Gold River (Laughlin, NV) where I'd quite literally raise any two cards from the button, CO, or HJ and usually be handed the pot with a c-bet on the flop even with multiple limpers. If they didn't have the absolute nuts, they wouldn't call.

That was back in the mid-1990s when Hold 'Em was unfamiliar to most tourists, Poker wasn't considered a spectator sport, and you couldn't find a LLSNL game anywhere -- or any NLHE except for side games at the Horseshoe during the WSOP (and those weren't LS games).

You have to adjust your late position raising range to how your opponents play. Sometimes that can be a very wide range, and sometimes you need to tighten it up quite a lot. In general, raise more liberally from the button, and tighten up when up-front, except for occasional deviations for table image/deceptive purposes. Never get into a habit of thinking: "I must do X in situation Y". Always assess each set of opponents. If they are weak/tight, and you don't know how they play when faced with a late position raise after they all limp, then test 'em to see what happens.

Yeah I use this strat in tournaments, was curious how often it works in cash games. I suppose there is a big difference between the two.

A very big difference indeed. Cash games don't have escalating blinds, no concerns with finishing in the money, and you can always reload whenever you want. Tournament play needs to be handled differently, but one thing remains the same: assess your opponents and play accordingly.

If you want to win the pot right there make a raise of about of about twice the number of limpers. I usually do this if it limps around to me and I'm on the button or even the SB OR BB (more rarely). Six limpers at 1/2 so I make it $25 bucks usually does the job. You can do this with **** hands or premiums just be prepared to play some poker if you choose the former.

Makes me crazy, the birds on a wire thing. If one flies they all fly but if that first one doesn't fly . . .

Of course a slight exaggeration but only slight.

Hu

Stacks and player tendencies matter a lot here. Without any player info however...


Unless you are REALLY good postflop, I suggest keeping your raising range tight in this spot - solid to premium hands, 99+, AJs+. In most 1/2 games, you have to show down a strong starting hand a couple of times before a table full of limpers will let you get away with much. Besides, in low stakes, it's always best to keep with the basic strategy of raising when you think you're ahead, and calling when you have a drawing hand. Simply because it's so unneccesary to do anything riskier in order to crush the game.

Experiment some and you will begin to develop a feel for when punishing a wave of limpers is a good idea, and when it's a bad idea. Generally speaking, unless you have developed a fearsome image, people are going to take shots at you will all kinds of hands, and in low stakes remember there are a LOT of players that love to limp big hands, as they think they have to do everything deceptively. I see limps with JJ+ all the time.

The only exception to this rule for me is when I have a nut drawing hand, like Ac4c, and my raise is to build a pot rather than isolate. Then, unless there is a LAG at the table who is good enough to spot the move and pounce, I will raise just enough to get the table to come along for the ride, guaranteeing that I am playing my drawing hand in position against lots of villains for a potential monster pot. But you have to be prepared to let go of anything less than trips or a flush draw - even TP/BP is weak sauce when you are up against 7 or 8 players.

In summary, don't feel like you have to raise just because you are on the button. Position is extremely important, but it does not make you bulletproof.

OK, since we know this, what hands will play well in this scenario?

Raising on the button is dependant on your villains.

If you have villains that don't float and fold when they miss, then raising IP and pot controlling come flop and betting scare cards is extremely profitable.

My raising range in the above case is usually JT-AK, 88-AA. So in effect, i'm usually raising from the CO or BTN 2 times every 3 orbits.

Now, if i'm at a table full of chasers and floaters, then I tighten my raising range to AT-AK, TT-AA, KQs

If i'm at a table full of donks that can't fold if they hit anything, then I keep my tighter raising range but am more likely to limp and draw with my SCs and SGs (suited gapers) and pot control, hit my hand and then value town them.

Deepness of the table is a major factor. Hands that are probably ahead on a shallow table should be raised to take it down or get 1 or 2 callers max, hands with big post flop potential on a deep table can be raised for pot building purposes.

+1... I pretty much always have a full 200BB BI in front of me. If a lot of others do as well, I'm raising CO-BTN super wide.

OP, you will be amazed to learn what people l/c with and how inelastic the sizing is. I am not at all exaggerating to tell you that it is common for me to raise a string of limpers to 10xBB and get multiple callers who show down hands as strong as QQ (seen it many times) and as weak as Q3s (they're soooted!).

I will usually go 6xBB +1.5BB per limper if I want to get a hand HU or 3-way. Then if they call a c-bet, we're often committed if we have any piece. This is not a strategy we want to employ with two napkins just because the V's are bad. They're bad because they call too much. Don't make that right.

Showdown value. Mid-pairs, big A's and even K's have show down value against the random draws that villains will call with down to the river. That way when the draw misses at the river I can just check back without having to make a soul read to wither or not the V has top pair(which is never folding) or a missed draw.

I don't really care for a squeeze play against that many limpers. A few lines to take without a very strong hand: Either try to thin the field with a hand that could flop a very strong hand or limp to see a cheap flop with a hand that will probably be either not worse than a one card draw to the nuts or nothing after the flop.

In the original scenario with that many limpers I have to both tighten my button range up some and bet more than the standard raise plus one big blind per limper if I'm trying to fold the field. Working at cross purposes there, while I hope to fold the field I don't really expect to so I want some showdown potential. Unlike some advice I have read other places I don't want things like weak aces, too easy to make second best hands. I'm not interested in broadway less than AK unless I limp myself, again makes a lot of second best hands. Axs is tempting here too but this isn't a hand that wants to thin the field, better to limp and if a blind raises we can see if we have pot odds to call before making a decision. Upper midrange and larger pairs that can become a monster on the flop I might bet about half the size I would bet to fold the field hoping to thin it a bit. I'd fold 88 and smaller, maybe nines depending on my exact read on some of the other players. With a strong enough hand for me to try a squeeze play here I'm almost certainly better off just trying to thin the field.

I started holdem play in no limit and never have played much limit so I have to admit I'm not comfortable trying to feel my way through with a weak hand when almost the whole table sees the flop. Less than two pair with the top one QQ+ or better feels weak to me in this situation. Depending on my read of the other players and the read I think they have on me I might bet large or try to get to showdown keeping the pot small. Nitty or not I'll probably fold one pair to a strong bet or raise.

To get away from theory and talk real world, when the birds on a wire thing happens no hand plays well without hitting the flop hard. We have a table full of players, most on a very wide range. I just built a big pot when I didn't want one against five callers.

Even holding pocket aces if somebody bets half-pot or bigger on the flop and gets a couple of callers before it gets to me I'm not thrilled. While pot odds and implied odds can make it right to play a few hands I suspect it is money ahead for me to fit or fold with six players seeing the flop. Against decent players this hand is going to play tough all the way through if somebody else is indicating they have a strong hand. If I can't take charge of the hand I'm likely to have to fold or get all in when I believe I am behind. Online with Holdem Manager I can see that I'm making money with some fairly weak hands here due to dead money in the pot, live play it's hard to get away from the fact I'm losing the pot over half the time.

Hu

I posted a similar question a few weeks ago specifically about drawing hands and other mediocre hands and the advice I got was quite good.

SCs - raise limpers small enough to get several callers but to fold blinds. You don't want a random Kxs to stack you with a bigger flush. Also, if you flop a draw, you can opt for free card when the field checks to the raiser.
Small pairs - raise to pot build because you will know by the flop if you hit your set. No need to draw till the river.
Ace rag suited - here you want to limp because if you hit you will have nut flush and don't need to worry about being coolered. You want the Kx suited in the blinds to call here. If you don't flop flush draw, or two pair your mostly done here.

Medium offsuit aces and non-ace broadways - raise one or two limpers to get heads up. If you pair heads up you are probably good. If you don't think you can get heads up because your table limp calls too much, just fold these hands, even on the button. They get very expensive quick in multiway pots.

Raise with SC - yes
raise with Axs - yes
Raise with small pairs - no - why would you do this? You are looking to hit a 2 outer?

The argument for raising small pairs is that if you hit your set then you'll guarantee stacking someone.

With effective stacks of < 100 BBs (or much less) I don't buy this argument. Nor do I think we should be raising suited connectors or Axs after a lotta limpers (unless it's some sorta metagame "mixing up our game" move every once and a while, something we probably really don't need to do).

For the most part, I think most here are far too aggressive preflop when we'd simply do much better in most cases by overlimping for extremely cheap in position and then stacking a donk postflop when we hit (keeping our implied odds massive).

Gweakpassive,justlikeallthegoodpokerbooksrecommend G