Title kinda says it all..I was originally going to post this to the Low Stress Thread, but I wanted to hear from a lot of posters.

Anyways, I got this idea from Jonathan Little's "Bluffs." Admittedly, I'm not as high on Little as I was in the past, but I still think his stuff in general is decent for beginners and novices - though that's as far as I think his stuff reaches.

Completely made up example:
Effective stack is $500, the game is 2/5, we are 9 handed. Hero opens $20 from LJ, and both blinds who are your typical LLSNL loose passives call.

Flop ($60): K72r. X to hero. What do you think of betting your entire range, an amount 1/3 - 1/2 pot? Say we bet $25 - so long as this works 29.4% of the time, it's a success.


Same example, but BTN loose passive calls pre. The pot is $80 now, on K72r. Say we bet $35 - this only has to get through 30.4% of the time to work.



In both spots, I felt like/still feel like it's the way to go because it'll work more often than it needs to. However, I have seen some opposition to this idea, and if it's a leak, I want to fix it. I have had success with it up to this point, but don't want to be biased by a laughable sample size to the LLN.

IME it's pretty profitable. Much of the population at least the ones I've observed are still quite fit or fold. Some even if they suspect what you are doing still don't do anything about it. They just care about playing their cards.

Now as you move up and in tougher line ups you will have to do some more range on range analysis and have some mixed strategies. But generally I'm for betting these types of boards that benefit our range with small sizings.

+1 to this

I think even on these boards if you are range betting you have to consider
No. Of Players
Position
Stack Depth

As a rule I'm not cbetting with total air when it's 4way+
My sizing should consider if I'm oop or ip. Eg range betting 1/3 pot oop will force a lot of floats from players ip, so you have to be willing to double barrel a lot with air here.

i am betting most non coordinated high card low card boards into 2 people.

i am giving up on like q-10-5 k-j-10, 9-8-7, 10-8-7. three flush when i have no suit and no pair.

into 3 people i might actually still bet like k-8-5 with like a-j. into 4 people i am playing very straight forwardly.

This idea isn't just in Little; it's also in NLHT&P. The idea of betting small on boards that your opponents are likely to have whiffed completely is generally a good one. At LLSNL, the problem is actually that these kinds of situations rarely happen, not that you can't exploit fit-or-fold opponents this way when they do.

Read the COTM on c-betting, imo.

In a vacuum i am not a fan of C-bet bluffing multiway without equity, but when i do it i like the dry boards with max fold equity like K-7-2 or 8-8-3 rainbow. Or you can do it as a tailored exploit against regs you have alot of history with on boards you know they will overfold alot, for example on A high flops in 3 bet pots.

In general though, i believe you rarely should C-bet bluff multiway without equity in LLSNL games. Its just too many random bad players who will make bad calls even though they shoudnt- just because they dont know any better.

Just because cbetting is profitable doesn't mean it is the most profitable; checking back the flop and betting the turn when checked to can often be superior, because people will bet their hands that they would call on the flop a decent % of the time, letting you save the bet

Very good point. Delayed C-bets is huge in the right spots.

Great advice and discussion. I will check out the COTM; I didn't realize that was done for LLSNL - I thought it was exclusively micro.

That's a really good point about delay c betting.

this is the most obvious way to play against lls players, hu ip cbet 1/3rd with 100% range on basically every flop except for the worst e.g 678 or j98 two tone. obviously becomes a lot more dicey when flatted from an ip player, so i would steer clear of doing anything like this from oop.

The players simply do not have any idea of the counter strategy to somebody doing this, it works well even against pros.

This. Also Spyu. Tommy Angelo calls hu ip cbet the "bread and butter" as in "you're making most of your money doing this". It pummels the fun players and they react badly.

Are you all doing 1/3 pot for your cbets? In my local room it's very rare for someone to bet less than 1/2 pot on the flop. Turns and rivers see all kinds of down bets and flop minraise is very fashionable, but flop cbet seems to be 1/2 pot. I've been betting 1/2 pot because I was thinking players would get more inelastic at 1/3 if they aren't used to seeing it, but maybe I should experiment.

On dry boards where I have a big range advantage I go 1/3 most often.


But I try to split my sizings based on ranges and board, stack sizes and villain tendencies. So you know like almost every other poker decision lol.

IME, players get undeniably more inelastic at 1/3, and spazz a lot too. I completely stopped downbetting because it was ****ing with my game. I do still bet around 1/3 pot (sightly bigger) though if it's 3 ways and a super dry board flops. I am anti downbetting in a live setting though.

idk it's been pretty fine for me. It's funny though I'm seeing people do this a lot more in spots where it makes no sense. I can tell they're just copying what they've seen other players doing. But have no idea what it is they're doing.

Late to the party, but this is how I think of it, taken largely from Alexander Fitzgerald.

Assign each villain a range, generally capped and wide, all the pocket pairs up to anywhere from 99 to QQ depending on how nitty the villain is, all the suited aces up to at least A9s and higher depending on how nitty, most if not all the suited connectors, lots of suited gappers, a bunch of suited big cards, and more than a few offsuit broadways, connectors, aces, and so forth.

Put such a range into Flopzilla. Put in the board cards. Filter for the hands the villain is likely likely to continue for our c-bet. The filter button shows what fraction of hands pass through. Subtract that fraction from 1, and that is the villain's folding frequency. It's going to be something like 50 to 70%.


Do the same for the other villain. Get your best guess for their folding frequency in the same manner.

Multiply those two numbers together. It will be somewhere from 25% to 50%.

If the is as low as 25%, the c-bet bluff is not going to work, not with the OP's betting size. But if it is more than 35% or so, then a c-bet is going to be profitable.

Keep in mind that this is something that will work on average. We can get called by at least one villain rather more than half the time and still be turning a profit, even if we are giving up when we get called.

And remember that our range also includes our value hands, and we like getting called when our holding is in that part of our range. Even more profit!

Are you advocating sizing up your cbets in MW pots?

This, but it should be flop-texture-dependant. A board like K72r, where both villains are going to be missing the flop a lot of the time, is a good one for an immediate c-bet. We might want to delay more on boards that differentially(*) favor the villains over us, something like a K76, where either villain has rather more combos of 7x, 6x, or 54 in their range than we do. Safe turn cards, particularly ones that hit our range, are good opportunities for a delayed c-bet.

Also, if we opened early and both blinds defend wide, they are going to have rather more aces in their range than we are, so a flop like A83 is going to be a good one for us to check back on the flop, but then fire a delayed c-bet if another big card falls on the turn and the action is checked to us.

(*) We may still have overall range advantage, but the board reduces that advantage by helping them more than it helps us

Yeah A wheel wheel boards are where I see people over c bet as the pfr.