6 handed game late night few weeks ago, Hero $300, V covers

Relevant HH's: V got his stack from first re-shipping $150 with A5 after I opened from EP with 78 and check-raised him on an A69 board. I bricked and he said he was sure I was on a flush draw (which he happened to be right but it tells me he's bad because a combo draw is the bottom of my range here when I'm also doing this with AQ+ so he's flipping at best. V now had $300 and about 30 minutes later I flatted a $16 open from MP (it was a straddle), V 3b to $60, UTG flats the $60, and he insta-ships $300 w/ AKo after I 4! to $160 with KK and he got there after he tells me he's "never folding AK in a 1/2 game". Which is laughable to never fold AK for 150bb, considering against most players at 1/2 I can't even get in QQ good for 100bb. I guess this isn't terrible because I played it tricky by not 3! pre and I could be squeezing, but I'm never really going to squeeze this guy as I know he's not afraid to stack off light.

V also told me he used to play some 25/50 and 50/100 in Vegas years ago with like an 80k BR, but had poor BR management and could never go full time, he now only gets to play a couple times a year.

On to the hand...

Folds to Hero on the BTN who holds AA who opens to $8, SB (V) 3! to $21, BB folds. Hero calls.

(I don't really want to debate 4! pre in this thread, I considered it ofc and it's perfectly standard but at this point he realized I was playing much tighter then he thought and he would just fold nearly everything pre instead of letting him spew post-flop. Yes I'm aware I also didn't 3! my KK lol, was going full trapper mode that night)

Flop ($44): King79

V bets $35, Hero calls.

Turn ($114): 6

V bets $75, Hero ? (I have ~$250 behind)


So from watching him play a few hands I knew his 3! range in this 6handed game was fairly linear and thus he can be showing up with a **** load of semi-bluffs OTT (like AQ with a club) and some "value" hands like AK, KQ, or potentially any PP that's turning itself into a bluff since my hand is tremendously under-repped.

The most important thing to note against this V is that I'm never folding here. If he flopped a flush or a set good for him.

If I flat the $75 there will be $264 in the pot w/ $150 behind, so I'm intending to call off on basically any non-club river, while potentially shoving myself if checked to.

If I shoved, it obviously wouldn't be for value (I really doubt he can call with worse, other than maybe AK), but rather to protect my equity. So IMO the most crucial question that answers whether or not to shove turn is whether or not we think V will give up OTR if he does not improve. Because if he does give up, then all I'm doing by calling the turn is allowing him to realize his equity for cheap. However if he will barrel a lot of rivers, then there's a lot of value on letting him keep bluffing.

Let me know what you think , I'll post results in a day or two.

Turn looks like a pretty easy jam. I'd didn't read a ton about our vil. No matter what it seems unlikely that he's so good that he's folding things like Ackx, probably most AKs for that matter or QcQx.

With the logic you're presenting, that the value (and chance) of him bluffing the river, outweighs the value of raising the turn which is substantial are you calling all rivers?

Can you give us some non arbitrary reason why you should ever fold any river if he bluffs so often that there's such incredible value in catching that we pass on a really great turn spot?

All I said was he's not a good 1/2 player who's gotten his money in bad twice and I might want to continue let him bluffing because he's potentially "capable" of it.

He's not a super spewy LAG who I perceive to be always triple barreling.

Yes, I'm calling any non-club river if I flat the turn.

But I suppose by me answering that question I should already realize there's more value in protecting my equity then the % of time he bluffs cards like 2, it's just that since I likely have the majority of his range drawing to 3-4 outs (other then clubs), and since I'm only folding to a club river, he doesn't have to bluff that often to make it more profitable.

Idk. For simplicity sake and to reduce variance I would shove turn but I want to hear if there's a legitimate argument that thinks call/call is more profitable here.

not sure why you don't 4bet when he never folds AK and doesn't appear to 3bet light.

As played just jam turn. He rarely has a flush and its likely you are ahead but he still has equity.

I think it's a pretty big mistake to not 4bet here given the info on this villain. You are missing tons of value vs his range if he wiffs the flop.

Given villains propensity to get it in bad and being bad in general, there's no reason not to 4 bet pre.

Whether you want to discuss it or not, pre seems pretty aweful

Because I expect him to at least always c-bet the flop with his entire 3! range, whereas he's going to fold the majority of his 3! range pre if I 4! and I'm missing a ton of value by not being able to get in multiple streets with the very top of my range.

And no, I didn't say he isn't 3! light, I said he's 3! a linear range, which in a 6max live game (especially against an open on the BTN when it folds around), includes **** like ATs/ATo, KQo, QJs, probably any PP.

He's bad because he used to play much higher stakes way back and likely isn't translating the money into an amount of BB but rather "only $300", but I've only showed up with big hands and being bad doesn't make him stupid. He knows I'm not going to 4! him light.

If he had a polarized 3! range like most would, then I would certainly always 4! here. But his 3! range is too weak to make flatting > 4!. Am I always going to flat in a spot like this? No, but if I'm ever going to play my range tricky this is as good as a spot as it's going to get.

with the dynamic you have im four betting all day. prob bigger side to get qq/99 to level themselves into " it's ak".

as played jam turn. he shouldn't ever have complete air here and u expect worse to call, often.

I think this is the trap that a lot of people fall into. That they say I'd only do this in this specific spot. Just keep in mind that it becomes really easy to do this more than 20‰ or so (which is really pretty close to the maximum that you should take a non standard, and therefore less +ev line, to protect your range or balance or whatever, which also isn't that necessary at this stake anyway) so you should be careful.

I'm not saying that I don't take lines like this from time to time as well, and have good reason, which 2+2 is gonna basically massacre everyone no matter what. Just be careful. Fancy plays cost more than you think.

The reason I asked the question about never folding above was that our call ott ends up opening up at least a 17‰(all the clubs) window of our opponent taking an unnecessary pot from us on the river for no reason. That adds up big time over time.

Things like min 4 betting pre or min raising the turn can be better options especially when that leaves the window open for our opponent to do something dumb like Bluff reraise. If they have a **** hand, they wouldn't continue anyway, give them more excuses to do dumb ****, people love to do dumb **** at this stake, like call or raise when they shouldn't. But if we're just calling we don't give them that opportunity. The important thing is to Raise. Get more money in there when you're a favorite, take every excuse possible to do that.

We're trying to help you win. The argument on here will always be for the standard line bc it has the highest % of making the most money as opposed to playing tricky. When you play tricky pre and then, even when you can make that argument pre, fall into the trap of continuing to do so when the turn is almost a sure raise (rather than continued trap. ) red flags start to go up that maybe we shouldn't have played tricky in the first place.

Idk, take it or leave it from someone whose gotten beaten up more than my fair share of times for advocating tricky lines. GL

I'm not arguing the turn isn't a raise. Frankly I thought it was too, I was trying to see if anybody had solid reasoning to the contrary.

Anyway since this hand probably wasn't even thread-worthy I'll just post results now.

Jam turn

Shown multiple times. He is willing to call light.

Understand your thought process. But think it's bad.

Should be raising for value pre. Raising for value on flop and turn.

Absolutely hate pretty much every street.

I never respond to 1/2 threads, but I will this time because I feel super bad about butchering that other thread. (sorry!)

Doesn't Villain kinda view us as a tricky aggrotard? He thinks we got our money in one time with a flush draw. He knows we got tricky with KK. Here it's been folded to us on the Button, we totally look FOS here. Plus this guy has proven he doesn't have a fold button. With this stack we can simply reraise to $60ish and feel comfortable stacking off postflop in what looks like could be an epeen war, no?

As played, now our SPR is 7. In my opinion, this isn't an SPR we should feel totally comfortable stacking off to postflop. However, our hand is super disguised, plus it's possible that Villain does have a big pair. I'm not exactly sure what my plan would be. Typically, I would plan to pot control with this SPR by letting one street check thru. But here, it's possible I would plan to go for stacks (board dependent, of course).

Not a great flop, and Villain is leading biggish. AK is limited due to our AA. KK is always a possibility. QQ- with a big club is also possible. I think I'm cool with just calling and evaluating.

If our plan is to never fold, then I think I would ship the turn at this point. Our hand is still underrepped and we can't afford the 4th club coming off (especially if we feel we might even still call a ship if it does).

ETA: He saw us push a "flush draw" earlier (plus play KK trickily), so why can't we be trickily pushing a naked A high flush draw now? If so, we can definitely get paid off with worse than AK. I know trying to get table images across in writing is difficult, but unless I'm reading it wrong, I get the feeling we have a FOS image and this guy simply doesn't believe us, which is why I would lean to aggro when I actually have the goods (both pre and post).

ETA#2: Also, I would put zero stock in him bragging about bigger stakes back in the day. 2 sessions ago I played with a guy I had never seen before. He began bragging how he played in the local poker clubs back in the 70s/80s and was even "semi professional". He was far and away the worst player at the table that day, and one of the worst I've seen recently. My fave play of his being when with a $150 stack he sees an EP open to $20, a 3bet to $60 from nit me, and he decides A5o is worth coldflatting with (lol, I guess that's the "semi" part of "semi professional") and goes on to call the shove/shove. People who brag about bigger stakes are typically big time fish.

Gstillthink4bettingpreflopisbestG