I have no real reads on the villain as far as her play goes. I've been at the table for the better part of 12 hours, it's around 2:45AM, and she sat down about an hour and a half ago. She's run up her original stack a little bit as well.

Stakes: Live 1/2NL @ Foxwoods

UTG limps, UTG+1 limps (our villain described above), MP limps, HERO limps 74 on button, SB completes, BB checks.

I have around $320 in my stack and a few of the limpers have me covered so I figure let's see a cheap flop and try to wack somebody if I hit a big hand.

Flop J36

Checks around.

Turn 5

SB leads for $10, folds to our villain who makes it $30, I raise to $115, SB folds, our villain asks for a count and then quickly calls.

River 3

Villain insta leads for $100. I have $200 left in front of me.

What hands are we putting the villain on here?
What's our best line?

She's not making a 50bb blocking bet, and her raise/call a decent raise on turn suggests that she has at least a strong hand or draw.

Definitely not raising the river bet, and pre thinking process was pretty bad too.

You know why you've been playing 12 hours and only have a stack of $320? Because you're playing hands like 74s. Fold pre.

1) You have no way of knowing what has happened in the session up until this point, what I sat with, what I'm in the game for, etc, so simply judging my stack based on the fact that I have $320 in front of me after 12 hours is neither fair nor relevant.

2) I'm not saying pre-flop is the world's greatest play but coming down that strongly on it and not even acknowledging the question I asked is just ridiculous.

Humor me sir, I made a bad play pre-flop as we are all prone to do from time to time. Now that I did it, how do I play my hand moving forward.

Why are you overlimping 74 OTB?

No need for personal attacks against OP. Folding 74s OTB in a limped pot 160BB deep is terrible advice.

Obviously we're never folding getting 3.5 to 1, so the question is, are we raising or calling. This is so player dependent. Even though she bet only 40% of the pot on the river, most $1/2 players think in terms of $ values, and $100 is a HUGE bet to these sorts of players.

So, if she's one of those players, we snap call, as a HUGE bet from her indicates a probable huge hand that just improved, and her FH likely beats our straight. Edit: meaning we think it's a huge hand enough to not raise. Not enough to fold. QQ-AA are in her range in EP, etc.

On the other hand (very unlikely), if she often makes bigger value bets on the river, and this bet size indicates it's a blocking bet, we have to push all in here. Unless we think she's tricky enough to block bet here, to bait you to raise, which is even more unlikely.

Since I wasn't there, and we don't have much of a read on villain, my default is to just call

Limping on the button 160 bb's deep is perfectly fine (assuming we are confident in our post flop skills). The crucial question seems to be what hands would villain limp with UTG+1. In the absence of reads it would typically be small pairs, suited connectors and broadway cards. Next question would be what hands within that range fit the turn and river action and 33,55,66 and 65s seem to fit that criteria. Against that range we have 22% equity and since we are getting only 2.4-1 it's a clear fold. If you can throw in some 2 pair hands such as J5s and J6s then we have enough equity to make the call. How loose pre-flop has she been in the hour and a half you've observed her? If loose I would make a crying call and if tight I might fold. Tough spot.

I think AA-QQ is in this range too for a busted limp/reraise attempt. Action fits those hands too IMO. They improved to 2 pair on river and donk, etc

I don't think AA-QQ would check flop, though.

Another thought. The instalead. Either she planned to lead before the river for $100 for her presumed safe cards, or she planned to lead for $100 on hands that improved her hand. I'm not sure how to use this info given short description of villain, but it is relevant info.

I think it's more likely she planned to instalead on any card (not just cards that paired the board or low cards that paired the board improving an overpair) which makes me slightly more likely to raise here.

But not enough to actually raise.

Good point. We'd have to assume she was planning to c/r the field of 4 players for the overpair scenario to hit. Hmmm

53s makes probably more sense than overpair, which she's likely to play it as bluff catcher.

This is a high variance spot because we have zero information, not even whether villain is positionally aware.

just call

Could you please give your analysis?

I'm just calling unless she'll go nuts with worse.

1) She's not making this play with 3x - the turn makes no sense, she doesn't ask how much you have left behind to call w/ bottom pair.

2) She doesn't call with a busted FD.

3) You're only hope for getting your shove called and winning is if she has AJ, QQ+ and limped, goes nuts on the river.

Players do this, and when you recognize them, then torture them for it.

But without any knowledge that your opponent plays this way, I don't see that you're going to shove and get called by worse.

Knowing a preflop range would help immensely. I don't see anywhere where you described the villain, except that she sat down an hour and a half ago and ran her stack up. This doesn't describe villain at all.

Does she limp 53s? Does she play aggro postflop? Does she check a set on that flop trying to induce action?

55 fits her play nicely too. There are a lot of live players who do not want to get their $ in until they have a lock. Again, knowing something about how she's played previously would help. Please give reads on players.

sir sadly a woman here in a 1/2 game is bluffing precisely 0.00000000% of the time.
its very likely to be that you are beat by a 53s or set that filled up as played i make a semi crying call not surprised when im beat.
do not listen to advice like this ever please

Fold or raise preflop. Limping is for fish. Wow, you have "pot odds"? So does everyone else in the hand.

and you are never shipping here, so the question is are you good 30% of the time? Probably not, but i dont think id be able to fold here.

Thanks for the advice everyone. Let me give a little bit more of my thoughts now that people have given me something constructive to work with.

1) I would provide more about the villain if I had more info. Since she just sat down I know very little about her and to be completely honest I wasn't paying great attention to the pots she won. I just looked down and poof, she had chips. Terrible on my part, but I did it so it's a part of this hand. I understand it would be EXTREMELY helpful to say more about the villain, but during this hand I had nothing else to go on.

2) I agree that shipping makes no sense here. We are never getting called by worse, at least without a read that our villain is capable of going stupid nuts with AJ, J5, J6, 65 here. I really don't think this is an overpair here based on the flop action. I think her range to raise/call on the turn is mainly two pair hands and sets

J6s, J5s, J3s, 65, 53, 63, 33, 55, 66, JJ

I think the trash Jx hands are probably not in the range because they are too weak pre-flop from an EP limper. Also, I think a FD is possible but not entirely likely as some people have mentioned already.

3) I didn't call pre-flop because I had "pot odds" and I don't think open folding hands like this on the button in limped pots is mandatory by any means. Not saying I'd play this hand in this spot every single time but in a lot of the 1/2NL games I play in there are tons of limped pots pre-flop. More often than not the entire table is limp/call happy or limp/folding. This table, though the dynamic has changed some since I first sat down, is much more limp/call happy so raising here seems like a spew since we're just not getting folds often enough and now bloating a pot with 7-high.

The table is going to give me the opportunity to completely maximize the value of my hand when I hit big (two pair or better). If I hit the flop and bet, the table is going to find at least a few callers because it's a limped pot and they just won't be willing to fold even middle pair to just one bet. In these limped pots I see fish more often than not just play their hand and not even try to think what their opponent has. You'll often be able to just smack somebody with a well disguised hand.

4) I was disgusted by the river, way more aggravated than is probably warranted by the simple turn of a card. I didn't think too long before saying, "You've got to have it now" and folding my hand. In talking about her holding a few hands later she said she, "had two pair before the river." I think I made a good laydown. Obviously she could be full of **** saying that, but without reads to know if she's going to way overvalue her hands and think J6 is the immortal nuts in this spot or think that this is, "a great spot for that blocking bet thingy I've heard about" I don't think there is much I'm going to be good against here.

Also, that's not a hidden brag that I folded quickly. It was more a knee-jerk reaction than a well thought out action to be completely honest. Upon reflection I still like the fold, but I left the game shortly after this happened to keep myself from chasing after this villain.

Big part of being profitable to play junks in position is utilizing FE.

Your thinking process that you want to stack someone by hitting big is very flawed, because after all, everyone else is doing the exact same thing in a limped pot. So short of coolering someone, such as two pairs over two pairs, straight over straight, and straight over trips, or some other unlikely scenarios, in which you're never quite comfortable yourself, limping with crap and playing them passively to hit "big" are never going to be +EV in the long run.

Were I in a game with even 3 other thinking opponents I would agree with you. The dynamics of 1/2NL games are still much more primitive than that, at least the ones I find myself in at Foxwoods. The villains I find myself against are going to call a few betting rounds with junkie pair type hands and will absolutely stack off with good TP hands in limped pots. Pre-flop, no one has given any real indication as to what their holding is so suddenly when a fish is holding TPGK and gets raised, rather than seeing a red flag he/she starts licking their chops. I don't think the other players are all thinking, "let me try to hit somebody over the head if I hit a big hand" by limping. More often than not these are villains that are limping hands like KJ and when a board comes J74 they are looking to stack off.

This is absolutely a gray area and very table dependent, but I don't think my logic is flawed.

EDIT: The goal of the play is closer to a set mine. The idea is to play these types of hands against opponents who are going to be overplaying their hands when they do hit and taking your value out of them.

Sets come in a lot more frequently though. Plus this hand hits a few draws that cost you more money (56x, 2 clubs, etc) you have to make up when you do make a hand. You made a hand and still have to make up $120 with 74s...next 10 times you get it you fold the flop ($20 more to make up), then you get a flush draw and waste $30 but don't get there.... This is a BINGO hand.


You mentioned that you had no reads on the girl who had been at your table for 1.5 hours. That is a huge leak. 95% of your opponents will have big glaring bet sizing leaks at $1/$2.

Preflop is standard, IMO (multiple limpers, best position, nice stack sizes, etc.). I'm playing 2 gappers here all day (perhaps drawing the line at these since 3 gappers can make 2nd best straights).

I also check behind the flop.

I also like to offer poor 2:1 odds on the turn, so nice raise size, IMO.

I probably just make a crying call on the end given our good odds. 55 looks like the most obvious candidate, but I'm guessing she shows up with worse enough. Just be thankful she didn't put us to a really tough decision by shoving the mere $200 into a $250 pot when we've showed extreme strength (which is what she should have done if she has a boat).

GcluelessNLnoobG

I am not saying that preflop was a bad decision, and just because all roads lead to the same place, doesn't make all of them the same.

Playing crap without reads is pretty much how every fish in the world plays.

I guess I have no incentive to argue, so I'll stop.

Semi-Grunch:

Pre is ok. Suited double gappers can take some people by surprise if you flop huge, but I prefer to be deeper before venturing into hands that speculative. You need to have a good setup (i.e. players that will pay you off in full when you make your hand, limped pot, deep stacks...) in order to play hands like that profitably. As I've preached repeatedly before though, if you want to play suited doublegappers because you have fun doing it or whatever, that's fine but overall, the +EV situations in which to play them are pretty rare. We all espouse that poker is a skill game - and I believe it is - but when you start taking bigger risks, you are dipping more into the pure gamble of it than the skill side. Nothing wrong with that, but call it what it is.

As played, I'd make the crying call. If she's got 3's full (or quads), your life just kind of sucks. It's a pretty odd way to play 5's or 6's full. Her hand looks a lot more like 56 than it does 53. Either way, I don't think she's a very good player