Tough 2-5 flop spot with nut flush draw on expected range disadvantage flop - Live Low-stakes No Limit Poker Forum

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Tough 2-5 flop spot with nut flush draw on expected range disadvantage flop

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12-10-2016 , 08:51 PM

DaBenf9

newbie

Join Date: Apr 2016 Posts: 43

Hero has just arrived at table and although recognises some players hero has never seen villain before and vice versa. Hero is 200bb deep and villain covers.This hand is the first hand hero plays at table.

Hero perceives villain as drunk recreational fish.

Preflop Hj(lag reg 2k) opens 20 Hero makes it 75 on bttn A

villain(1.2k) in sb calls and hj calls.

Flop Pot(230) 7

Checks to hero who bets 125 (too small sizing?)
villain sb checkraises to 285

At this time hero feels like villains range is 2pair plus or pair and flush draw and maybe rarely 99-jj

Hero call? Click it back? Shove?

Last edited by DaBenf9; 12-10-2016 at 09:01 PM.

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12-10-2016 , 09:01 PM

Jarretman

veteran

Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 2,939

Just call preflop. As played call

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12-10-2016 , 09:09 PM

Amanaplan

acanalpanamA

Join Date: Jan 2015 Posts: 5,628

I'm jamming vs this guy

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12-10-2016 , 09:20 PM

QuadJ

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Apr 2012 Posts: 6,292

Flat calling preflop and checking this flop some of the time are both good plans but your line isn't bad. Flop bet sizing is fine. As played call. You don't know if you have enough FE for shoving to be a good idea and your getting way too good of odds to give up. If you think you have FE then jamming is OK also.

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12-10-2016 , 09:20 PM

Buster65

The Situation

Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 2,468

His sizing is too small also. With no reads that V can fold, I like a call.

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12-10-2016 , 09:53 PM

Amanaplan

acanalpanamA

Join Date: Jan 2015 Posts: 5,628

Quote:

Originally Posted by QuadJ

Cannot call - drunk V likely to jam all turns - shove 800 for value where worse draws don't ck-r-fold, pairs can hero (or fold), and eq is always realized.

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12-10-2016 , 09:53 PM

MIB211

veteran

Join Date: Jan 2013 Posts: 3,010

I jam. V's cold calling range of a 3 bet pre is something like pocket pairs up to QQ, AK and maybe a few random nice suited cards. his raising range is sets, 2 pair (which is like 1 combo of 75s and overpairs. If you shove you put a tremendous amount of pressure against his overpairs, which is the majority of his range. If he folds overpairs, that's great. If he calls with an overpair you're flipping most of the time. He can call with worse draws too. Of course he'll call with two pair+, but that's a pretty small part of his range especially if he's folding 22 to a 3-bet.

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12-10-2016 , 09:56 PM

DaBenf9

newbie

Join Date: Apr 2016 Posts: 43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amanaplan

I'm jamming vs this guy

Hero expects to have 0 fe vs villains range. And thinks villain is never raise foldig this board?
Why are you jamming?And What are you trying to accomplish

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12-10-2016 , 09:58 PM

DaBenf9

newbie

Join Date: Apr 2016 Posts: 43

Quote:

Originally Posted by QuadJ

thanx for the solid feedback bud
hero expects to have 0 fe vs villains perceived range. and believes villain is never raise folding on this board

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12-10-2016 , 10:01 PM

#10

DaBenf9

newbie

Join Date: Apr 2016 Posts: 43

Quote:

Originally Posted by MIB211

i see where your coming from bud but your forgeting most important aspect of this hand. Villain profile perception in description.
i agree with almost everyone of your points, except for the fact that at the moment villain range has to be established in relation to his profile description and not on what you expect most recreationals range to be.
Also villain is never folding an overpair post, and would never fold 22 pre.
If shove doesnt accomplish any better hands to fold, and is only for value when vs his flush combos, what are the arguements for shoving?

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12-10-2016 , 10:03 PM

#11

Buster65

The Situation

Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 2,468

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amanaplan

Cannot call - drunk V likely to jam all turns -

Why would you assume this? His sizing is so bad, we are likely to get a great price to see the river.

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12-10-2016 , 10:15 PM

#12

MIB211

veteran

Join Date: Jan 2013 Posts: 3,010

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaBenf9

From the op you say you just sat down and have never played V before. Hard to put a ton of stock in the read. Even a drinking rec can feel squeamish getting it in with TT here 1000 deep when you could have all overpairs given the 3-bet pre.

If your read is right then you shouldn't be 3-betting pre at all. Just flat and try to nut mine against a V who can't fold.

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12-10-2016 , 10:29 PM

#13

Amanaplan

acanalpanamA

Join Date: Jan 2015 Posts: 5,628

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buster65

Why would you assume this? His sizing is so bad, we are likely to get a great price to see the river.

I'm assuming it's at least very likely when pot is 800 heading to the turn w ~650 eff. I also don't want to give myself the opportunity to make a bad fold against a weak wide drunk on any street.

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Originally Posted by DaBenf9

Hero expects to have 0 fe vs villains range. And thinks villain is never raise foldig this board?
Why are you jamming?And What are you trying to accomplish

Any FE likely comes from his 1p hands which I'm neutral to him folding-calling to begin with - this is a bet-shove for value against a weak wide draw-heavy range. If betting flop it's a shove not a call.

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12-10-2016 , 10:44 PM

#14

BirdsallSa

adept

Join Date: Oct 2014 Posts: 723

If Hero knows he has zero fold equity by 3betting then why is this a thread? Are you asking us if you should fold getting 4-1 with the nut flush draw in position?

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12-10-2016 , 11:10 PM

#15

Buster65

The Situation

Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 2,468

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amanaplan

I also don't want to give myself the opportunity to make a bad fold against a weak wide drunk on any street.

You can also do this by committing to not folding and call, keeping his bluffs in.

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12-11-2016 , 12:04 AM

#16

Amanaplan

acanalpanamA

Join Date: Jan 2015 Posts: 5,628

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buster65

You can also do this by committing to not folding and call, keeping his bluffs in.

Well logically speaking of course that would solve the folding problem. But of course it's a raw deal that sometimes allows V to ck the worst hand on the riv with stack behind (if we can't assume he doesn't shove turn), ensure zero FE (where we have some/still can benefit from folded equity even as a potential favorite), and reduce likely reduce our hand V range equity in the process. All of that adds up to a pretty big dent in EV compared to shoving in a spot where most of Vs ck-r range = his gii range.

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12-11-2016 , 02:18 AM

#17

keybattle

grinder

Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 665

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaBenf9

Hero expects to have 0 fe vs villains range. And thinks villain is never raise foldig this board?
Why are you jamming?And What are you trying to accomplish

This is very wrong. V likes to raise with 99-QQ here to see where he's at and fold to 3bet. Even if he is not folding, you are not in bad shape

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12-11-2016 , 02:23 AM

#18

keybattle

grinder

Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 665

Quote:

Originally Posted by BirdsallSa

If Hero knows he has zero fold equity by 3betting then why is this a thread? Are you asking us if you should fold getting 4-1 with the nut flush draw in position?

I was loling at this point as well.

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12-11-2016 , 09:27 PM

#19

ASLheadwalk

grinder

Join Date: Aug 2014 Posts: 406

I like checking flop. When I see V call 75 from sb and original raiser call I assume 99/TT/JJ is out there, which won't fold to one bet. Also being new players tend to peel lighter. Def a good hand to barrell but still like checking.

Calling the raise going from there. Not a fan of jamming flop.

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