I just wanted to start a thread discussing what people's opinions are on the differences in raising ranges in LP between a LAG and a TAG.

Depends on who's in the blinds, and who has limped along.

If I've got blinds who love to defend but fold to cbet/turn bet often, then it's almost any 2 when folded to me.

If I've got limpers that limp/call, then fold to cbet, I'll iso with Axs, Kxs, Q8s+ J9s+, and 99+,


If you're playing TAG, then ATs+, 22+ if first in, or if limpers, then AQs+, KQo, KQs, 99+

Well, the key difference between my lag/tag ranges are gappers. But thats just by looking at my ranges from a note aspect. When I play TAG I want suited broadways with an Ace/king or connected broadways. When playing LAG I like to play any suited Ace, King or queen. But mainly I like to play any Ace, king or queen that can make a straight.

Surely the point is that there is not "TAG" and "LAG" There is an entire spectrum and everybody has an opening range somewhere along it.

It depends.

At my laggiest I'll raise AT+, Axs, 22+, suited connectors, KQ, and suited broadways, although some of those hands are sometimes a limp depending on which way the wind is blowing. I almost never play, let alone raise, Kxs or Qxs. Does that make me a tighty-whitey? To me, those hands are just too one-dimensional and if I make a flush, I really don't like having the 2nd- or 3rd-nut flush. But I see people playing hands like that all the time. (Pay, you must have an opinion on this. What's your range like?)

On the tightest end: Pairs, AK, AQ, ATs+

Edit: I'm hardly ever playing fully to one end of the spectrum, usually a spot in between.

You're misinterpreting the purpose of LAG play. Many times it is not even to actually hit your hand, but rather, to simply read and outplay opponents postflop. You never mentioned position in relation to your range, the factor that is most important to a LAG player.

This. The only thing you can say definitively is that a loose player will have a wider range than a tight player.

David Sklansky brought up 30 years ago that static starting hand guides are fine when first starting out. A consequence is that if you are up against a good player, they don't have a range they stick with. For example, live players should recognize there are times when the table is tired and nobody is much interested in playing any hands other than good ones. I'll steal in late position with ATC. Other times especially after a big pot, everyone is calling with anything that remotely connects because they want to hit a monster. Then I'll have good hands only.

This is actually more effective against the better players you'll see at LLSNL.

Check OP. This is a discussion of late position TAG/LAG raising hands.

My bad.

I still think that if you are going to play true LAG and you are in LP you should mostly be playing Kxs and Qxs because the point isn't really to hit that flush but rather to outplay people and those are decently strong hands to be doing that with.

My style for raising is usually somewhere closer to a LAG in LP if people are limp foldy preflop, and more of a TAG at the super loose games. So it basically depends on who is doing what at the table. Sometimes certain people are on tilt that they are more fit or fold, other times (more often) they are more apt to call down when on tilt. So particularly the players that have position on me have a lot to do with my raising range.

So if players are playing fit or fold/limp foldy, I am raising 67ss++ 89o++ 22+ all broadways+ Qxss+ (pretty wide)

If players are playing loose and tilty, range improves to suited broadways+, unsuited stronger broadways, 66+ (sometimes overlimp small pp with limpers), Axsuited, overlimping 67ss,78ss etc when multitude of limpers

When Im playing laggy I ditch low suited connectors. But when Im playing my tag game I mix in low suited connectors because most villains wont put you on those cards with a tight image. Vs loose and tilty players your range seems more tag to me. Over limping Axsuited that can make a straight is missing tons of value. The key to ranges for lag play in lp is pokerstove work or experience. Or just see my above post for lag play.

Why do you ditch low SC when playing LAG?

I think most thinking lags and tags modify their ranges during a single session depending on what you stated above as well as effective stack sizes, game flow, perception of hero at that specific time. Right after a hat trick my range "may differ" from my range when Ive been card dead for 3 dealers.

I want to emphasize the impact of effective stack sizes on ranges of both tags and lags.

Because poker is about they're range vs my range. When you play a laggy game you have less fold equity, but you still want showdown value. After playing nitty and building my stack I add weaker hands such as weak aces, weak queens, weak kings, 109s+, 55+ to my range. Low sc's make weak pairs that don't win pots live. Vs the normal limp call range you are drawing pretty thin. Raising 65s or 53s does not make you a lag. I would rather raise low sc's in early position, repping a polarized range. Then to add a whole bunch of weak sc's, sg's or osc's. When Im playing lag, thats just my thoughts.

You guys seem to be focusing on hands a lot. Instead of that, focus on situations when you have a clear plan of how you can exploit a specific opponent's tendencies in position. The cards you 'LAG-it up with' in late position are a backup plan. You should have a plan for specific opponents based around either implied odds or fold equity. LAG works best when you can generate a lot of folds from opponents, either on this street or future streets. So you need to know your opponent's pain thresholds and have a plan for how you will frequently get them to fold the best hand or to call with a worse hand if you hit your backup plan. If you can't clearly articulate how you plan to outplay your opponents on later streets based on specific flaws in their games, stick to tighter ranges. If your opponents don't like to fold no matter what, stick to a widened value range. Specific hands are not really that important for LP LAG play...

Yeah ranges are not important,lol.

Sigh. Ranges are important. They are less important for positional LAG play than the other things I mentioned in my reply. Think through situations where it might be profitable to take a certain line against a weaker opponent with flaws that you know you can exploit without knowing what your cards are. If you are good enough vs. your opponent those situations exist sometimes. Now layer on actually having a hand...

I guess my point PB is move off of level 1 poker if you are going to play LAG in position. It's not about making a hand as most of the time it won't go to showdown. Move up a level and play your opponent's range or your perceived range, depending on the level of your opponent. Or stick to more basic TAG, which should be quite fine at these levels.

Im clearly pass level 1 poker, but if we dont talk about ranges. Then all of our convo's will be it depends, blah blah blah. Im tired of these run around the topic answers. Everyone is doing it like playing lag or being aggressive is level 10 poker. When you play aggressive poker we all should know that your hand rarely matters. But if we don't set a line, then we are clearly playing a spewy game. I myself like to talk ranges it just makes the topics more useful in the end.

The threshold that prevents spew is the # of right situations that you can identify. That's the difference between good positional play and being an aggromonkey. The % of situations when you can clearly see a profitable plan for good positional LAG play is far below 100% of being in CO/BTN. Your actual hand is a consideration for these plays. But not a huge one.

Great point, and your right. I don't play "well gee this hand is in my range let me raise". No poker is more in depth then that. Of course limpers, ranges and style of play, play a big part in my decision's. But it still goes back to my range vs they're range's.

By the way I always like your post/threads in this forum. I really meant no harm.

So, setsy, to answer OP's post, would you say your lp lag raising range is atc?

Awesome posts Setsy and PokahBlows.

I dream of the day where I am a good enough LAG that I can win/exploit villain's tendencies without even looking at my cards.

At this stage I am nowhere near there and find myself being more passive preflop in position when I loosen up and not seeing my hand vs. the board as a backup plan to exploiting tendencies/fear, but instead thinking too much about equity in a given situation.

I am definitely beyond a level 1 player, but when I move into new territory it seems like the rest of my game takes a few steps back.

Outside of playing micros online or play money, do you guys have any recommendations for any good simulation software? I think if I had a laboratory-type environment to experiment with a more LAG style I would be more comfortable making changes at the table. So far when attempting LAG play I don't make it much further than iso-raise, and barreling flops/turns that don't coordinate with villain's perceived range. There are times where I am able to tell a strong/consistent story over 2-3 streets and take down medium-big pots regardless of my actual hand strength, but there are as many (or more) times that I am just donating...this happens more OOP when I haven't identified somebody properly as a station.

Adjusting to my new image is an issue as well. At this stage it is much easier for me to take advantage of a tight image than it is to use a loose one to exploit.

I really want to be able to practice without spewing too much at the table. Thanks in advance for any guidance.

I agree w/ Setsy in that at some point of LAG play your hand range doesn't matter but your opponents hand range does and so does your perceived hand range.

If you're playing an older opponent who can read the board well and knows how to sigh/fold big hands, you can play IP against him w/ almost ATC and just raise when scare cards come (mainly straight/flush completers) and he'll fold.

If you're playing against a TAG, you may opt for check/raises more often if this TAG doesn't continue past a c/r without 2pr+ or NFD.

Personally, I think a LAG opening range is a little harder to define because it can be broken down into purposes:

a) Value opening range
b) Semi-bluff opening range
c) Isolation opening range

All of these will depend on the opponents being faced. When I'm playing LAG my value opening range from all positions is not much different than a TAGs opening range. Where LAGs differ from TAGs is their willingness to widen their semi-bluff & isolation opening ranges. To do this, however, LAGs must nit-pick certain tendencies of your opponents and use these ranges against them. The reason you'll find more successul TAGs in low-limit games is that the biggest tendency of opponents is to call too much - and TAGs adjust by getting really good at their value range.

Up higher, it seems (in my limited experience), tendencies can be a little more specific (call too much preflop, then fold flop; or raise too much preflop, but fold to flop/turn raise). The reason for this is that the fish have had a little more experience in running into monsters and so they are acutely aware of hands better than 1 & 2 pair. As such, they are a little more willing to fold to strength. As a result, former TAGs have to get good at their semi-bluff/isolation range.

This is already too long.... but it again boils down to "it depends" but I think my thoughts above explain why it depends... Thoughts?

1) You gotta know your opponents first. This is easier to do with regs you play with every session

2) Learn to identify when your opponent is "weak" or "strong". Just pay attention during the hand and try to guess whether they have stronger than 1 pr or not. This takes practice and experience.

3) Learn to identify opponents who know how to fold top pair or fold something like AQo to a 3bet. This is the single biggest factor that I found for myself is finding opponents who can easily fold.

4) Be prepared to set aside a few buy-ins to practice these. You will spew at first but consider it learning money and it may get you paid off more later when you have good hands.

5) Bet big when you have the nuts. This will make up for the times people hero call your bluffs.