Open Side Menu Go to the Top
Register
Thoughts on this 1/2 hand Thoughts on this 1/2 hand

12-02-2014 , 04:40 PM
Was playing 1/2 at the Horseshoe in Hammond for about 4 hours when this hand came up.

Hero- 40 yo friendly player who knows what he is doing and the table sees him as such. $250

V1- came from a broken table about 45 minutes prior with about $600, is now down to about $450. This a player is very inexperienced and is there to gamble. Did not know what we were talking about when he was asked to chop the blinds once. Another hand he doubled me back to even when I shoved a 982 flop with no spades and called my $70 bet into a pot of $100 with KQs. Will not bet if he doesnt have a big hand but will call any draws and over cards.

V2- Newish to the table, about one orbit, already won a straightforward type hand. $250

Hero is in SB, V1 is HJ, V2 is CO

Folded to UTG+3 who raises to $5

V1 calls
V2 calls

Hero looks at AKo and raises to $25

BB folds
UTG+3 folds
V1 calls
V2 calls

Pot $82

Flop AQJ rainbow

Hero leads for $50
V1 calls
V2 folds

Pot $182

Turn 6 completing the rainbow

Hero checks
V1 checks

Pot $182

River 6

Hero bets $75
V1 shoves
Hero????????


First let me apologize for the hand history. This is the first hand I have posted in a forum in a long time, so Im still a little rusty.

I know some of you are going to question the check on the turn, which is fair, but the reason I did it, was because I felt the flop wasnt a great one and knew that he would bet the turn if I was beat. Also before I bet the flop, I was fully prepared to lay it down against any aggression and was also prepared to check any flop that wasnt another A or 10.

When he didnt bet the turn, I felt I was way ahead, and the river 6 was a great card for me so I bet the amount that I felt would get called by a smaller A, Q, or J.

After a few responses Ill let you know what I did and why I did it

A.J.
Thoughts on this 1/2 hand Quote
12-02-2014 , 04:59 PM
Against someone who doesn't really understand relative hand strength I'm fine calling here. If stacks were deeper I think it's a sigh fold, but it's our last 100 into a pot 432 so we only need to be good a fraction of the time. I would prefer to have been the one to shove here as we are rarely good when V comes over the top.

He probably shows up with AQ or AJ a chunk of the time. A slow played KT could make sense given dryness of the flop and the fact that it hits our 3-bet range pretty hard, but he's probably not thinking in those terms. He could just as easily have A2-AT and think he's trying to push us off a chop. Not really any 6s in his range, so I'm not too concerned about turn and river. He might take this line with QJ and not realize that he's been counterfeited.

Not sure I love the turn check, are we turning our hand into a bluff catcher? If so, why not just check river and let V fire his bluff or size his value bet incorrectly so we can call knowing we're probably behind but getting great odds.
Thoughts on this 1/2 hand Quote
12-02-2014 , 05:13 PM
Bet turn, shove river.

As played, call. Folding for $100 more after we've put in half our stack is a mistake.
Thoughts on this 1/2 hand Quote
12-02-2014 , 07:13 PM
Agreed. Bet turn, shove river. I am never folding against villain described.

I think you missed value on the turn. You missed out to get stacks in by river. He could easily have QJ not knowing that his two pair just got counterfeited.

AP, Call.
Thoughts on this 1/2 hand Quote
12-02-2014 , 08:54 PM
Any info on how he plays Top pair hands?

When he jams do you think he is taking into account you have $125? Or in his mind is he risking his full stack? (Common mistake I see with inexperienced players)


Checking turn is just bad. IMO. Where you gonna check/fold? Checking to induce worse to bet is generally bad plan vs passive/station type players.

As played. I can't see folding here vs inexperienced player. Ev has to be neutral. (Warning!!!! I can be a payoff wizard at times)
Thoughts on this 1/2 hand Quote
12-02-2014 , 09:30 PM
Gross.

I don't think we're good here. But we're getting 4-to-1, and his spazz/inexperienced/misread factor is high enough that this becomes a crying call. Villain thinks he's ahead. Villain isn't putting you on a hand. But Villain could also be totally wrong.
Thoughts on this 1/2 hand Quote
12-02-2014 , 11:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikko
Any info on how he plays Top pair hands?

When he jams do you think he is taking into account you have $125? Or in his mind is he risking his full stack? (Common mistake I see with inexperienced players)


Checking turn is just bad. IMO. Where you gonna check/fold? Checking to induce worse to bet is generally bad plan vs passive/station type players.

As played. I can't see folding here vs inexperienced player. Ev has to be neutral. (Warning!!!! I can be a payoff wizard at times)
The only time I saw him lead with top pair was top kicker, but he also raised preflop with AQ, so if he had a smaller A he was checking behind on the turn. I also agree that normally checking the turn here is bad, but in this situation with the villian and the flop, I was prepared to check fold here, and I was also prepared to fold the flop too if there was significant aggression behind me.

To answer your question about whether or not he knew the stack sizes when shoving, the answer is yes. Before I checked the turn I asked to see his stack because his hands were covering it, and it was stated by a couple players he had me covered.
Thoughts on this 1/2 hand Quote
12-03-2014 , 02:40 AM
Think you just answered your own question. It's a fold.

Trust your reads. Definitely seems like this guy isn't capable of bluffing.
Thoughts on this 1/2 hand Quote
12-03-2014 , 02:55 AM
I should have trusted my read, because I did make the call. I thought for a while, and just couldnt put him on a hand that he would play that way and is ahead of me after the river. I talked myself into thinking he had QJ and didnt realize he was counterfitted. He immediately showed K6 and I shipped him my stack. After the shock wore off, I realized it was the only thing he could have had there with the way he played it. The only thing that made me feel better was that no matter how I played it, I was losing my whole stack.
Thoughts on this 1/2 hand Quote
12-03-2014 , 03:20 AM
if hes bad enough to have K6 here, hes most likely bad enough to go all-in with worse
Thoughts on this 1/2 hand Quote
12-03-2014 , 03:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AJD804
Will not bet if he doesnt have a big hand
I would fold.
Thoughts on this 1/2 hand Quote
12-03-2014 , 07:30 AM
The guy calls you down with kq high in previous hands and will not bluff without a better hand according to you... how are we not going for phat value on the turn???
Thoughts on this 1/2 hand Quote
12-03-2014 , 09:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ozmosis313
The guy calls you down with kq high in previous hands and will not bluff without a better hand according to you... how are we not going for phat value on the turn???
Agreed. A station who plays his hands face up is not one kind of villain we want to control the size of the pot.
Thoughts on this 1/2 hand Quote
12-03-2014 , 09:42 AM
Bart Hanson said many times in his vids that people ate LSNL never bluff OTR.
I think it's a fold.
Thoughts on this 1/2 hand Quote
12-03-2014 , 10:34 AM
K6?

Snap reload. Compliment him on a nicely played hand (try and be sincere). Buy him a drink. Print money while he chases with rags, and be wary of his big bets.
Thoughts on this 1/2 hand Quote
12-03-2014 , 11:58 AM
grunch:

I dont mind the turn check against this type of opponent because we dont have to worry about him taking the agression over with a hand we beat. I can see how we miss value from alot of pair + straight draw hands tho/

I like the river value bet and now we fold to his shove. He is never bluffing and when he shoves over AK is beyond crushed. EZ game

Edit: Ok didnt look at stack sizes, I like a turn bet much more with how much we have behind but as played I still think we must fold. Just no way we are good here even a small percent of the time
Thoughts on this 1/2 hand Quote
12-03-2014 , 12:10 PM
You have to call at this point, but the turn should've been a shove against this guy
Thoughts on this 1/2 hand Quote
12-03-2014 , 12:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AJD804
I should have trusted my read, because I did make the call. I thought for a while, and just couldnt put him on a hand that he would play that way and is ahead of me after the river. I talked myself into thinking he had QJ and didnt realize he was counterfitted. He immediately showed K6 and I shipped him my stack. After the shock wore off, I realized it was the only thing he could have had there with the way he played it. The only thing that made me feel better was that no matter how I played it, I was losing my whole stack.
Why didn't we bet the turn?
Thoughts on this 1/2 hand Quote
12-03-2014 , 12:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by roberbro23
Why didn't we bet the turn?
Its in the OP. This flop hits him squarely in the face, and i knew if he had me beat he would raise the flop or wait until the turn. So I figured why should I bet to find out where I am at, when I can just check. It was bad luck that he went runner runner on me, but in the same spot I do it again. I just wanted to know if anyone else felt the same way.

If the flop was A72 or even A105, or something like that, Im going for three strrets of value. AQJ isnt exactly a great flop for three streets imo.

Last edited by AJD804; 12-03-2014 at 12:27 PM.
Thoughts on this 1/2 hand Quote
12-03-2014 , 12:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AJD804
Its in the OP. This flop hits him squarely in the face, and i knew if he had me beat he would raise the flop or wait until the turn. So I figured why should I bet to find out where I am at, when I can just check. It was bad luck that he went runner runner on me, but in the same spot I do it again. I just wanted to know if anyone else felt the same way.

If the flop was A72 or even A105, or something like that, Im going for three strrets of value. AQJ isnt exactly a great flop for three streets imo.
The guy showed K6, the flop didn't hit his range 'squarely in the face'. Your read on his range is bad.

Obviously he also has A2-AK, K6-KQ, Q8-QJ, J8-JT, TT and a bunch of other ****. You're missing lots of value on the turn. You have 175 left and the pot is 182, shove the turn. This is the same guy who called a flop shove with two overs right? Why are you so gun shy?

Maybe your line helps you get a small river bet from 55, 77-99, but you should be doubling up against pair+gutshot, AX, KX combos.

Just in terms of absolute strength, if we discount AA,QQ,JJ (because he didn't 3bet or 5bet when given the chance) you have the 4th nuts on the flop. The turn promotes 4 hands (A6,K6,Q6,66), but it doesn't matter because if he has those hands he also has a bunch of other hands you want to get value from. Not betting turn seems horrible.
Thoughts on this 1/2 hand Quote
12-03-2014 , 12:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by unreasonable
The guy showed K6, the flop didn't hit his range 'squarely in the face'. Your read on his range is bad.

Obviously he also has A2-AK, K6-KQ, Q8-QJ, J8-JT, TT and a bunch of other ****. You're missing lots of value on the turn. You have 175 left and the pot is 182, shove the turn. This is the same guy who called a flop shove with two overs right? Why are you so gun shy?

Maybe your line helps you get a small river bet from 55, 77-99, but you should be doubling up against pair+gutshot, AX, KX combos.

Just in terms of absolute strength, if we discount AA,QQ,JJ (because he didn't 3bet or 5bet when given the chance) you have the 4th nuts on the flop. The turn promotes 4 hands (A6,K6,Q6,66), but it doesn't matter because if he has those hands he also has a bunch of other hands you want to get value from. Not betting turn seems horrible.
This is what I am trying to learn. Is a bet/fold on the turn better than a check? Especially if Im going to fold to his turn bet?
Thoughts on this 1/2 hand Quote
12-03-2014 , 01:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AJD804
This is what I am trying to learn. Is a bet/fold on the turn better than a check? Especially if Im going to fold to his turn bet?
You only have a PSB behind, how much do you want to bet? I think you should just pot it.

What hands do you think he will fold on the turn but call a small river bet with? When will he fold KX, JX, TT, 99? If a passive player calls a 3bet and a flop bet with K6, it really seems like they don't ever want to fold anything.

There are only 3 semi-reasonable lines, i) shove turn, ii) b(small)/f turn, b river, iii) x/f turn, b(small)/f river. I like option (i) because I want to double up when he has a garbage pair and possibly if he only has a gutshot. Option (ii) or (iii) might make sense against a less stationy player who will think second or third pair has showdown value but isn't a good hand for stacking off with. Checking the flop and jamming the river is bad since you lose value against his naked gutshots.

Such a small part of his range beats you that it doesn't make sense to pot control. Just because you know that you would check/fold or bet/fold (if you were deeper) doesn't mean that you need to check in order to give yourself the opportunity to fold. Most of the time he is just going to check behind and you are missing the chance to get stacks in against his inferior pairs.
Thoughts on this 1/2 hand Quote
12-04-2014 , 03:16 PM
Excellent analysis so far as to why a turn shove is mandatory. Just to add a couple points:

You need to get value/deny free cards on the turn, so you should bet. But you don't have enough to bet/fold. Say you bet 75 and he shoves; his most likely hand (since he didn't raise the flop) is A6. You'd be getting the right price to call anyway. So, by doing anything but shoving you're basically creating a situation where the money is far more likely to get in the middle if you're beat.

Also, one way to think of your expected profit in a game is the value of your opponents' mistakes minus the value of your mistakes. You know that shoving cannot be a mistake against an opponent who stacks off with K high. And because he will stack off so light shoving maximizes the value of his mistakes. By checking you give yourself the opportunity to make mistakes later in the hand (either calling when beat or folding when ahead/when you are getting the right price to call); plus giving free cards against a range you crush but has outs is a mistake in itself.

So basically by not shoving the turn you are minimizing the potential value of your opponent's mistakes and maximizing the value of your potential mistakes.
Thoughts on this 1/2 hand Quote
12-04-2014 , 03:33 PM
Vs bad players like this just bet bet bet and fold when they show strength. Vs good players (rare at this level) or tight OMCs we may want to check this flop but vs gamblers we should let them gamble.
Thoughts on this 1/2 hand Quote

      
m