1/2 Latenight.

V is a 60´s white guy, just sat down, bought in for the max ($500) (unusual for an old dude) which suggested to me that we was at least semi competent. Was wearing a Halliburton ball cap, levis, boots.

Hero is 30´s donk with big stack.

Some muppet limpers, hero raise AA in SB to $15, V in BB calls, everyone else folds.

($32ish) Flop: J34

Hero bets $20, V raises to $40, Hero calls (with vague plan to donk a lot of turns, maybe c/r an 8.

($105) Turn Q

Hero donks $75 (because he thinks V might likely ''pot control'' on this turn because that's what old dudes are apt to do), V calls

($255) River: 8

Hero bets $100

Edit: Thoughts on line? Better alternatives?

Not really sure what the question is. Is V BB? Probably raising just a smidgen bigger pre, $18-20 due to OOP.

I don't have much experience with donking the next street after facing a raise but b/f turn and river seems fine. I'd bet more on the river, $150.

Definitely bet/fold turn and river.

Not sure where the "stop n go" play is here.

Seems like a pretty straight forward hard. Well played.

Whats the catch?

Preflop is too small for most 1/2 games. $20/$25 is better. Turn is ok, but I'm not liking it when villain calls a fairly big turn bet on such a dry board.

Depending on how I feel about the situation, I might check/call or bet/fold river. It is hard to know which is better against an unknown villain. Against some check/fold after they call turn might even be the best option but against an unknown I'm not just automatically giving this up.

I can dig it. We are playing against an unkown here so we don't want to play a 500BB pot with 1 pair here. I don't think his min-raising range is very different from his calling range. He still has a ton of hands we beat and a bunch of less likely hands that we don't beat. So stop n go seems solid here to get value, information, and control at the same time. I think the pot size at showdown is pretty much spot on with the size that you should want it to be. That being said, I think we can make the same pot size, same value, and risk less with a turn donk of 60 and a river bet of 120. His value hands that we beat call turn and river with this sizing, and his value hands that we don't beat and decide to raise the turn allow us to save a bit of money and get away from it. I don't think 1/2 players are likely to raise turn as a bluff with a draw after raising flop as a bluff with a draw, so it's an easy bet/fold on both streets. The important thing here is that we have no reads so ABC aggression is going to be your best play here.

As a side note, in my experience from 1/2 to 2/5, large river bets are more likely to be called than large turn bets since people know that they don't have to worry about calling a big bet on a later street. So I usually size my turn bluffs bigger (while the pot is smaller), river bluff less often, and size my river value bets fairly large. I don't mind that my turn value is cut because I make up for it on my river sizing. It works great because people see you fire these (relatively) large turn bluffs and then expect you to be bluffing when you make large river bets. So you get bluff caught when the pot is smaller and get value when the pot is bigger. Plus, when we are bluffing big on the turn with a draw (in a spot that we are unlikely to get raised off our equity), the pot is now bloated for when we hit and want to fire a big river bet for max value. Unbalanced play like these even works against 5/10 rec players and the lower skilled end of the reg spectrum, however the better players (and better rolled players) are more likely to adjust and in the deeper games get more curious.

bet/call flop, lead turn is usually referred to as stop and go.

I like it, OP. NH. The min raise from an old guy is soooo often TPTK/TPGK.

Really?

Then what do you call it when you flat a raise or 3 bet from oop preflop and then open shove any flop?

bet/fold a little more on the river to 165 so you don't induce a bluff by looking weak if he did miss his draws.

"******ed?"

Calling a raise OOP and then leading the next street is what I have always heard people refer to as a stop and go. The streets don't really matter, afaict from general usage.

I'm not holding myself out as an arbiter of what poker jargon means, I'm just saying that OP's usage is one example of how I've heard the term used for my whole career as a player. Shrug.

This V as described should have no bluffs otr, so sizing is all about his calling threshold with JXdd and KK. He could even just flat JQ ott instead of raising and he's calling the River too with that line so I like OP sizing a lot.

OP did you have Ad?
I like how you played it, ck for value is bad, any alternate 3b line on the flop folds out almost everything but sets and KK... Turn stop and go and your sizing is cool vs older pot control type, exploits the **** out of them since they're just never raising here without a set and they still might call Jx stuff in addition to Jxdd and KK.

KK is really the only hand where you could have gotten his whole stack with some sort of b/3b flop, turn smash line. For the rest of his range that makes it to the River I like it.

... And YES this is a Stop and go.

I really disagree that bluffs are not possible. We really have nothing on him except this:

if anything the Halliburton ball cap would suggest he's there to gamble.

Not worried in the least about getting bluffed. If anything, I think ''same bet'' on the river might be better. We really want a crying call from AJ,KJ,JT, etc.

where are these $500 buy in 1/2 games?

Great post and I´m sure you are 10x the player I am...but I would like to respectfully disagree with the bolded.

When some knucklehead donks on a scare card an old man is going the think he is FOS. I think the turn is where the fat value is. The river against these guys should be about inducing a crying call, trying not to lose too much when we are crushed.

so if he missed a draw and raised 100 to 400, you would call or not worry about throwing away the winner?

Don't think I love it, tbh.

We block AJ; QJ improved on the turn; JJ,33,44 while unlikely do exist.

Hands that give us some value = AJ(6), KJ(12) = 18 combos. Perhaps we can add in JT and some suited Jx.

Hands that beat us = QJ(9),33(3),44(3),JJ(3) = 18.

I think a hero line that involves raise pre, b/c flop, b/f turn and b/f river is probably overplaying your hand for value. I have a hard time even seeing V call the river with KJ or worse, and that's a significant % of potential worse hands that give you value.

I think there are a few better lines.

1. You can check turn. If V checks turn behind, you can then b/f river for value. If V bets the turn, you can probably peel that bet and then check/decide on rivers. I think it's fine if V "pot controls" turn. I would like to play a smaller pot... I mean, if he calls your river bet with worse and is thus actually willing to play a 225BB pot with Jx on this run-out... then just wow.

2. You can bet turn for value like you did and then safely c/f on the river.

So as played, I would have c/f the river instead of b/f.

He is saying he's not worried about V raising river as a bluff often enough for it to matter, which I would agree with.

On top of that, his opponents are the worst villains on this forum.

I think it was a Negreanu video, not sure, but the context was fairly specific...a tournament, you are very short-stacked, deep-stacked late position raiser, you in BB, heads up. Instead of shoving pre, flat then shove any flop because you have no FE pre-flop but may have some when villain whiffs.

I think sets mostly raise us on the turn. I take your point about rarely getting a call on the river by JT,J9 etc. c/f though???

Edit: And stop trolling me BirdMan. If you don't like my threads, ignore them please.

Hah never sell yourself short. I like to view no one on 2p2 as better than anyone else since ultimately everything is opinion and there's always some merit to every idea.

A big part of my style is making relatively large polarizing river bets with a non-polarized range. My image and table demeanor is usually pretty LAGgy (how one acts/socializes/dresses plays a huge role in how thinly they can bet or bluff vs. unkowns.) So I can make bets that look like blockers or crappy bluffs on the turn and my polarized river sizing skews my range heavily towards bluffs. On boards that are wet, I would agree with going for fat value on the turn (assuming we have a good handle on their range and know when/correct SPR to x/f river).

On your hand when we rep more bluffs on the turn by betting smaller, I believe we still get crying calls from the large river bet the same amount as if we bet turn bigger and river smaller (In fact, IMO we get more calls from Jx this way since the most players tend to think that smaller bets are valueish and bigger bets are bluffy). The only hand we lose value from is 56. In the end, the pot size is the same but we save money when we get raised on the turn (at the cost of losing value from draws).

The only true way to figure out which is better here is to math the hand on the turn and river. Which would get pretty muddy since nobody will agree on exact ranges, fold equity, and river calling frequencies. Nobody is right or wrong, just my personal preference to keep pots smaller until river since I usually get a lot more folds on turns than rivers.

Where did that come from lol. I was referring to your thread where the old woman called 100 on a gutshot. Or the other hand where you got in 600 bb with one pair and were good. If you think those Vs were wizards sorry that I bursted your bubble.

Yeah OP, c/f river is the nut line based on how we played up until river.

You raise pre, V calls. You bet/call flop. Then you lead the Q turn for value because you feel V can call with Jx, would often check behind Jx, QJ is only 9 combos, and 33,44,JJ are combinatorically unlikely and V didn't raise, though a set is still possible.

So you lead turn 75 into 105 and he calls.

Betting river for value is an overplay imo. I think V folds a meaningful % of Jx, and I don't think the bet is +EV. So check. And I'm confident of a number of things.

First, when you check, V will not bet one pair Jx hands for value or as a bluff - he will check those behind.

Second, V should have very few if any bluffs in his range after calling your raise pre, raising flop and calling turn - there are no flush draws, and raggy Ax and low card straight draws are very unlikely... like 65o is probably not in his pre-flop range, it's very unlikely he raises the flop with that or hands like it, etc., etc.

So when you check river, his range for betting handily beats AA.

How thin is a river value bet?

I mean, AJ(6), KJ(12), JT(12) are 30 combos. QJ,33,44,JJ are 18.

Let's say he calls 50% of the Jx hands, so that's 15 combos.

And let's eliminate 1/3 of set combos, so that's 15 combos, as well.

That quick estimation says the value bet is break-even.

If I was to tweak the equation, I'd probably say he folds Jx 60%+ instead of 50%.

I'm just not seeing a case for a good value bet here. That makes the best line c/f.

Santa Fe in vegas is $500 cap 1/2