I think you are correct in saying low limit players cant fold thier hands and on the river they are either folding or calling there is really no middle ground so you might as well put a ton in there. I think going all in is a mistake though alot of times all in sounds scary and will get them off thier hand.

I CANNOT wait to try this!!!

@dgi, even if flush hits you should be b$etting river. Either bet fold 200ish, or monkeyshove anyways

What do you think about the talking as a tell? I have found when Vs talk, it seems to be a indicator that they are going to talk themselves into a call. As a matter of fact, I have found I usually don't start talking until I have decided on my action.

I don't know if you remember this. but there was a thread posted last month where the 2 people have trip aces (I think they both lost to a boat) and one of the Vs makes a hopeless call with A5 after saying "I guess it comes down to kickers". Lol, with a 5 kicker!

Obviously this does not help with the second hand posted, but in the first hand V starts talking on the turn....

+1

I totally understand your confidence in getting all the V money if you hit your GS, but calling the flop here seems way off in the long run.

Hand from today at 1/2....

Villian 1 UTG+2: ($600 A middle aged honkey donk that limps in any pot with any two cards as long as they are connected. This villian CAN NOT FOLD two pairs, sets, bottom end straights, small flushes, it's almost impossible for him.)

Villian 2 Button: ($300 A kid who has read a couple poker books and understands starting hand requirements and position raising. He had been active on his button.)

Hero BB: ($700 and have been playing tight as a rock. Any competent player should be able to see this/figure this out.)

There's 3 limpers, it gets to button and he makes it $15, it gets to me and I have..

8/8

I think about 3 betting, I decide to just call and set mine. I hope all the limpers call.

Villian 1 calls, so it's a 3 way pot with around $50 in it.

Flop 8/10/6 two clubs...

I lead out $20.00 with hopes to induce a raise or float from the button.

Villian 1 calls. Villian 2 folds.

I know now that Villian 1 either has a flush/straight draw, 10/6 to 10/A, or something like 8/7 or 6/7. No way he has the straight because if he did he flips out and raises huge on flop to protect against flush draw.

Turn is a blank, $90.00 in the pot.

I bomb it for $100.00.

He insta calls. (At this point I am thinking "****, I should have bet $200.00)

River is another blank.

$290 in the pot, I bomb it for the rest of his money. (Hail Mary Full Of Grace...)

"You flop that straight? Nah, you would have checked it and re-raised. You betting that flush draw? You miss? That's an awful big bet. You got King/10 of clubs? You got Jack 10 of clubs? That's what you got huh? I fold you show me man?"

I just sit and say nothing..

"**** it, I call, show me what you got."

He calls with Ace/10. LOL

You have got to be able to identify these ultra mega donkeys, there's plenty of them out there.

For each of them though, there's a person you have to be value cautious with because once you bet $50 or $100, no matter how strong their hand is they get very scared and fold. With them if you bet too much you own yourself.

I'll play devil's advocate and ask: how does this type of angry and embarrassing stack-off affect the villain's chances of coming back for another session any time soon?

Against the people with that kind of table talk, and when they get so angry, the chance of them not coming back is slim IMO. "They just got unlucky" they also feel like they have something to prove; they are better than these other donkeys

You have to know how to talk to the fish after the hand...

If the fish says something like...

"Good hand. I thought for sure you missed the flush draw. I'm an idiot."

You say... "You're not an idiot. I would have called in your position, you had to, look at how much I bet, I tried to make it look like a bluff..."

or..

"You know what, I called a guy the other night for my whole stack on the river the other night with just ACE HIGH, he was bluffing all the time, I thought I had him, but I didn't... at least in this case you had top pair!!!"

If the fish calls with trips low kicker into an obvious FULL HOUSE, FLUSH, OR STRAIGHT...

You say...

"You had trips, you can't fold trips, that's a call every time!!!"

Then you let the fish say what they need to say to feel better about the hand, you agree, and move on....

Maybe later when the same fish takes down a hand from you, you say "nice hand, I think you outplayed me on that one."


You make them feel comfortable/make them feel they didn't do anything out of the ordinary after you rake in a huge pot from them..

^ nope you just gotta say "I got lucky with that turn" and that's all they need. Don't be patronising, they may be idiot poker players but they're probably not idiots.

Holy thread necromancy, Batman!

Ya'll realize that this thread is from 2011, right? And post 11 was a bump about a year later, in 2012? Are we trying to make a tradition out of this thread?

Well Garlick, lessons on over betting cannot be reinforced enough, imo

Wow this is good stuff. Timeless really.

Personally, I think it's good for the game to let the fish know their play is OK. Generally speaking, fish believe texas holdem is a game of chance, just like the slots. I find nothing wrong with trying to convince them otherwise.

So yes, I'll say "wow, top two pair? I would have called. How can you fold there?"

They're having fun, let them be

If you're not overbet shipping your value hands otr you're doing it wrong imo

Internet player played it great. (IF he is playing and thinking as I think) Internet player has the nuts and its almost 100% that his villain has either trip 7s or a flush on the river. Hero has the ability to over shove and get paid a fairly decent % of time----He will get paid the 1600 here often enough to well outweight the few times the villain folds 777---------thus it is an EXCELLENT shove. Also, villain is donk ---he isnt folding 777 even very often.



It is for sure villain calls 100% with a flush, and very high % with trips, thus the shove was easy to see and commendable tip of the hat to the internet player for seeing and taking the optimal line.

The kid doesnt have to handread perfectly here to make the play. He knows the villain has one or two very big hands---thus shove. What is it most poker players do that they shouldnt? Number one problem with about all players? They call when they should fold.

Fast forward 45 minutes. 2/5nl Effective stacks $1k, I cover villain.

I'm in the SB with A5. UTG+1 raises $15, MP calls, Villain calls from LP, I flat from SB, 4 way action.

Flop($60) 3 2 J
I check, UTG+1 checks, MP checks, Villain bets $45, I call, UTG+1 and MP folds.

I called knowing that if I hit the gut shot I can stack this villain and make up the odds I need to justify the call or if I hit an ace I will probably be ahead and can extract some value. I also felt there is a good chance he would check back turn if he was drawing and I see two cards for the price of the flop. I've also been stealing alot at this table by floating and betting river when weakness was shown so overall I liked flatting here for both the balancing aspect (deception for future hands) and the drawing aspect

Turn($150) 4
I lead out $125. V insta calls

River($400) 9
I shove $900-ish which puts V all-in. V tanks and tanks and tanks and says, "Busted flush draw again huh? You got the Ace five huh? You flop a set??? yada yada yada"

He then shows me the Jack but i'm not looking at him (i see the card in my peripheral vision). Once he showed the Jack, I got a boner I knew he was calling. Finally, after another minute of tanking he calls and shows QJo.

I show A5 and villain goes ape-s*** with "How could you call the flop bet, you called flop on a gut shot... REALLY???? That's how you play".

Analysis.

V was sure I was bluffing just because I bluffed earlier, however like most recreational players he doesn't distinguish between my earlier bluff of 2/3 pot vs this bet for DOUBLE POT!!!!! In his fishy little mind, a bluff is a bluff is a bluff and since I bluffed earlier obviously I'm bluffing now for double pot despite me leading out when the 4 hit on turn.

Similarly, there was no need for me to try to be "trappy" on the turn. I knew he would call with 100% of his flop betting range which includes sets, TPGK, and flush draws. When he "snap" called me on turn I felt strongly that he had a made hand and that I could go ahead and just monkey shove river and that he would level himself into calling which he did.[/QUOTE]














Another interesting point u bring up. I see tons of times where decent players call huge river bets from villains only because they saw them make like CR of $60 on flop often and had air etc. They equate that the player could be bluffing the river huge bet the same as what they bluff 60 on the flop with.

Obv they are not equal. Tons of players jack around for smaller bets, but when the serious money goes in---its the nuts.

Conversely if we make small CR on flops on air flop raises andget caught, then for sure most will overvalue themselves and call our huge river shoves---as they think we just must be bluffing "as usual".

The exploitation of the routine live players mindset is similar to giving a sculptor a ball of clay about the size of Montana.

The history of this thread is...strange to say the least. But it got me thinking of a hand I played about a week ago at 1/2.

Villain in this hand is a relative unknown. I played with him one time before. He seems to like to play too many pots and I saw him spazz out with a 2x the pot overbet bluff that got snapped off by top pair. Stack - $510, I cover.

I'm in the SB with an offsuit A 4. There are 3 limps, including villain in CO, and I complete because I'm lolbad. BB checks and off to the flop.

Flop ($10) - A K 3 rainbow

I lead for 8 dollars. Only villain calls.

Turn ($26) - 4, putting spade draw on board.

Gin card for me, I lead out with a PSB. Villain snaps me off. At this point, it's pretty obvious to me that Villain has Ax.

River ($78) - Another 4.

I take maybe 15 seconds and I shove all in. It's $474 for Villain to call. "I think I gotta call." "Do you have a 4? How could you have a 4?" "Why would you bet so much?" "I have to call". He ends up calling it off in under 30 seconds and tables AT. Thanks bro.

Got me wondering about the best line when the board reads with some obvious chop possibilities. On a board reading similar to AK443, how much can we bet and reasonably expect to get called by Ax? Villains are never folding to a PSB right? What about 2x the pot? If it's a villain that we don't have much history with, is the optimum play to just shove all in? Are villains routinely bad enough to throw 500 bucks into a 75 dollar pot that they are, at best, going to chop?

I'm really curious if this was an isolated event that was extremely unlikely or if I can expect to get enough calls to make open shoving a better play than just betting the pot and getting called every time.

I've found that some villains have a thing about "all in". They place extra value on being all in, regardless of the money value. Maybe it's all the Degree All In Moments they've seen on TV, who the heck knows.

So sometimes if I'm going for a big overbet on the river I'll size it to leave them with like 20bbs.

play the player... not to mention over bets look like bluffs.

i once saw a friend of mine bet 2400 on the river in a 2/5 game with like 250 in the pot... (500$ max buy-in too)... my friend asian pro....V was white guy in his 50s or 60s with a cowboy hat on.. it was 4th of july in AC..so clearly Mr cowboy hat was in town on vacation. the board was something like 679TK with 4ds on board. obvi my boy had the 8ds... and he was pretty sure the donk had the A.. who knows if the clown even saw the straight flush possibility.. but he snapped and lost the 1000 big blind pot lol

but basically the way i see it is going for the huge over bet is worth it only if the % of the time the V calls massively out weighs the fact hes snapping off a value bet