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Is this spewy? Is this spewy?

11-15-2014 , 11:36 PM
Hey guys. First time poster. I've been thinking about a hand I played the other day at 1/2 NL.
But first, abit about myself.
I've been playing poker on and off for about 3 years. But mostly within Live FL (4/8). Most of my game evolves around spots to !3 in position. My local casino no longer has the limit game, so I'm playing more NL. I'm pretty much a strickly Live player. Dabbled abit online, but it wasn't really my thing.

I conconsider myself to be loose and aggresive pf at times, but mostly a tag. A try hard rec player if you will.
I don’t consider myself that great at the game, but I feel that I'm better then most of the players at the local casino.

So, on with the hand.

The game is 1/2 NL with a max buy in of $300. Pf opens varies based on the day of the week, but tonight it was about $10-$12.
The villain sits down on my left with $700 (table change). Completely unknown. Within 6 hands; he's raised preflop to $15 5 times. Then shows hands like 10-6os buffs and such. He continues to bluff and gets to about 900 in no time. I have about 400 and I get a seat change to gain position on him and I fold every hand preflop for about 30 minutes (I was card dead- not that nitty).

Within the 30 mins, I noticed that he shuts down often when he loses the betting lead postflop ( not once did anyone else 3 bet him pre. So was unsure how he would react to that).
Hand #1
Villain was sb and I was UTG.
I limp with 4-5 suited with the intention of !3 the villain. Two other ppl limp, the sb (villain) pops it to 15. Bb folds, and I re pop to 45. He was my only caller. The flop was something like Q-8-2r. He checks I bet 60 he folds.

Hand #2. (Same orbit).
Everyone folbs to the villain. He raises to $15. It folds to me (button). I !3 to 45 with 72os. He calls. The flop is AJ6 two spades. He checks. I opted to check back as I felt he could check raise with anything. (Plus I was trying to rep AA as I did nothing for 30mins prior). The turn was another J (flush missed ) and he bets 90. I take abit of time and make it 270 and he snap folds.

How bad or good was this play? I wasn't trying to get him to fold a jack or anything, but I felt that with my current table image and his maniac betting, he would of bet more likely with air with a pot size bet and 1/2 pot ish bet with a value hand.

2 or 3 other regs were convinced I had AA

Even though this guy is raising like every other hand, should I try and capitalize on spots or just wait for hands with value?

On a side note: from previous hands, he mostly bet 1/2 pot or pot only during post flop bets. So I did think he was at least thinking about his bet sizes.
Is this spewy? Quote
11-16-2014 , 01:10 AM
If someone is very loose preflop and plays fit or fold postflop when facing aggresion, like this villain, it is very profitable to bloat the pot in position with basically anything and c-bet when checked to. It's spewy if V or other players start adjusting, but if they don't, it's printing money.
Is this spewy? Quote
11-16-2014 , 01:18 AM
Hand one seems fine for testing someone's stack off limitations.
Hand 2 youre really not repping much, your bluff seems like a bad idea unless you're deeply rolled verse a regular that you play with often, meaning that you can exploit the information gained in this hand in the future. But here, you can't. You don't mention stack sizes but if this guy calls or raises your never gonna see his hand in this scenario since you don't have the equity to call off if he raises.

Fwiw, against most players you only get a limited amount of 3bet bluff capital to play around with. And you're wasting yours in tiny pots. If you want to experiment, do it in hands that are immediately profitable. For example, V raises and 4 limpers call, then you squeeze. The bottom line is you're wasting your image to win little pots. Save that for the big pots that in which you actually have a respectable amount of equity and FE.
Is this spewy? Quote
11-16-2014 , 01:21 AM
Strangers often get benefit of the doubt for a while until regs figure them out.
Is this spewy? Quote
11-16-2014 , 12:20 PM
Thanks for the responses.

My local casino is quite full of regs and rec's that play fit or fold. Which is the reason why i mostly play TAG. But as mentioned, at certain spots i go LAG pre (mostly due to boredom or a nice spot opens up) .

I understand what BuffaloHound is saying about the squeeze for more value and not trying to take small pots. However, I have seen multiple times (when someone else tries to squeeze); that at least one of them will stack off pre.
Ie. raise 10. call call call, raise 100. fold fold call.

I may have too many gamblers at my casino and not enough poker players. Most just want to stick it in and build pots that way.

Im not sure how accurate the next statement is; but i think that most of the players at this casino play post flop very poorly. I feel that my edge (if any) is post flop. In which case; i just refer to create a bigger pot pre in position heads up.
Is this spewy? Quote
11-16-2014 , 12:41 PM
Quote:
I !3 to 45 with 72os.
whats you 3bet bluff matters, not all bluff are the same, doing it with 72o is dumb
Is this spewy? Quote
11-16-2014 , 12:48 PM
The answer is yes. As RP put it, it will take less time than you think for the regulars to start exploiting you. The reason is that you have fallen in the trap many LLSNL players do with things like bluffs. You are doing them far too often.

The typical 3 bet range for a 1/2 player is about QQ+, AK. That's 2.6% of hands. Therefore, I'd expect a player at 1/2 to 3bet every 1.5 hours or so. A very good player will realize that most hands don't go to showdown and there is some extra profit to be squeeze if he opens this up a bit. One way to do this is to take hands that have no value, like 72o and treat them like they are a big hand. If you only do it with 72o in this situation, your profitability goes up with 72o because it is protected by your strong hands. Your 3bet timing goes to about once per hour. Even if I realize you're sneaking in a garbage hand, I can't exploit it because I'll continue to overall lose more money by attacking than folding. For the old timers, that's Shania.

Your problem is you're starting to do this 1 to 2 times per orbit. I know now that your 3bet range is weak and can start fighting back because I'll be ahead most of the time.

Therefore, this is spew.
Is this spewy? Quote
11-16-2014 , 12:56 PM
Thanks Venice. I will put that into consideration for when I play FL as well. I know in my original post I mentioned it was in the same orbit, however, I ended up playing for about 4 hours, and I had only !3 bet 3 times the entire session (the other was AA). As you mentioned, !3 at my casino is usually JJ+ (but sometimes JJ will still just flat pre).

edit: Just to clarify; IF i only do this play once a session(if even once); its not considered as spewy as it can be protected by my other hands that would be considered a normal !3 in LLSNL(QQ+)?
Is this spewy? Quote
11-16-2014 , 01:29 PM
I mean 3betting with 72o is just spewy period. You can construct a range of 3betting hands, if you want to bluff a lot its gonna be

Value hands+hands just barely too weak to call. ie "polarized"

there is no reason to 3bet hands with no value, it just makes your entire range have less ev. If you 3bet 72o and folds q4s in the same spot thats just ridiculous, but you can't call with either of them, and you can't 3bet all of them or your 3bet is too weak
Is this spewy? Quote
11-16-2014 , 11:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BitchiBee
I mean 3betting with 72o is just spewy period. You can construct a range of 3betting hands, if you want to bluff a lot its gonna be

Value hands+hands just barely too weak to call. ie "polarized"
So what do you think about a range that is premiums (AA-QQ, AK and maybe JJ) and then the trouble hands (AJ, AT, KQ, KJ, QJ) and a few high SCs like 98s and 87s?
Is this spewy? Quote
11-17-2014 , 12:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BitchiBee
I mean 3betting with 72o is just spewy period. You can construct a range of 3betting hands, if you want to bluff a lot its gonna be

Value hands+hands just barely too weak to call. ie "polarized"

there is no reason to 3bet hands with no value, it just makes your entire range have less ev. If you 3bet 72o and folds q4s in the same spot thats just ridiculous, but you can't call with either of them, and you can't 3bet all of them or your 3bet is too weak
Umm...only caught this because it was quoted.

Polarized means very top or very bottom, AA or 72o.
Is this spewy? Quote
11-17-2014 , 12:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnyBuz
So what do you think about a range that is premiums (AA-QQ, AK and maybe JJ) and then the trouble hands (AJ, AT, KQ, KJ, QJ) and a few high SCs like 98s and 87s?
3betting range in live should definitely be elastic.
Is this spewy? Quote
11-17-2014 , 12:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnyBuz
So what do you think about a range that is premiums (AA-QQ, AK and maybe JJ) and then the trouble hands (AJ, AT, KQ, KJ, QJ) and a few high SCs like 98s and 87s?
thats a fairly good range for 3betting loose players who like calling alot imo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Parker
Umm...only caught this because it was quoted.

Polarized means very top or very bottom, AA or 72o.
polarized just means premiums or bluffs. And 72o is not good enough to be in your preflop bluffing range.

Last edited by BitchiBee; 11-17-2014 at 01:01 AM.
Is this spewy? Quote
11-17-2014 , 02:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BitchiBee
polarized just means premiums or bluffs.
Nope, not really.

A polarized range includes exactly the nuts and zero equity crap.

Premiums and bluffs could include 2P+ or bottom pair - an elastic relative range.
Is this spewy? Quote
11-17-2014 , 02:25 AM
I don't know where you got that from but thats just wrong. esp in relation to preflop play, you cannot use the world polarized range for preflop play if that was the definition.

In postflop play yes if someone is betting only 2p+ and turning his bottom pair hands into that is still a polarized range. When someone says that I call here because his range is polarized, all they mean is Im calling because my hand beats all his bluffs and his value range is extremely narrow.
Is this spewy? Quote
11-17-2014 , 10:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Parker
3betting range in live should definitely be elastic.
What do you mean?
Is this spewy? Quote
11-17-2014 , 11:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by masmyoffice
Hand #1
I limp 4-5 suited with the intention of !3 the villain. The flop was something like Q-8-2r. He checks. I bet 60 he folds.

Hand #2.
I !3 to 45 with 72os. He calls. The flop is AJ6 two spades. He checks. I opted to check. The turn was another J. he bets 90. I take a bit of time and make it 270 and he snap folds.
I suggest a more fundamental approach to LLSNL. To answer your question... yes, it is spewy.
Is this spewy? Quote

      
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