One addition: This deep, if hero doesn't raise the flop, it's pretty unlikely he'll raise the turn. Not many people are trying to play for 400BB stacks without the nuts.

Then we sigh fold. We don't check behind because we're scared of being raised when we're second best. We welcome those bets as an, "oh thanks for letting me know I was behind, I would've definitely lost a lot more if this had gone to the river."

Running out of popcorn, though. Not much more to disagree about.

A man is nothing without his word.

Kappa

great thread. Can you explain exactly how you shoved & what you did after while villain (Hero) was tanking?

Interesting 50,000BB+ side action ITT.

I don't have much more to add and look forward to an epic reveal from OP.

Tanked like 10-15 seconds on flop/turn before betting. Tanked 30 or so seconds before shipping river by saying "all in" and throwing out a couple blacks. I'm one of those left-hand-on-right-shoulder people. Stayed that way the whole hand.

Saw this a bunch at wsop, is there a reason for it? it just doesn't seem comfortable to me

This was an incredibly divisive thread with lines drawn deep in the sand

*fingers crossed I'm not the one eating crow*

Just a comfort thing. Honestly I think Max Steinberg's pose is the most uncomfortable-looking

Alright. Looks like nobody else has anything more to add. Thank you again for all of your responses. Results below:



EDIT: See you soon @Sneaky Pete!

Edit: Sick hand, you are a wizard.

Sick sick sick sick sick sick sick sick

raise more pf. mods plz move to bbv.

(jk, nice hand)

Love it, but it's complete spew. Hope you had good reasons to do it or this is definitely very -EV... (Or maybe it's just -EV for me, they all seem to know I must be bluffing here like 90% of the time)

I don't at all hate the shove. It's weird to me you basically did it without reads, and you not having the As makes it seem a lot riskier to me honestly.

Oh wait yeah...I read it as AsQc

Personally, I like it better without As. Gives villain more AsXo combos in his range to fold, probability-wise reduces how often villain shows up with boats. The first two streets are riskier, the river is less risky.

Not having the nut flush blocker is a pretty big factor when we are deciding what to do on the river in this spot. Gives villain way more flush combos to fold when we have the Qs and not the As imo.

Flush-draw combos.. Any decent player should be raising with the nut flush before river...

Edit: The more I think about this, we only realistically lose to AsKx for all villain's AsX hands, and that's somewhat unlikely due to not seeing a raise pre. Furthermore villain isn't likely to have KQ since you have Qs (KQ and KJ should be your primary targets for bluffing). So I think your line is problematic in that you are attacking mostly strong made hands and some air (that you beat); yes, I do see people call down often enough with naked As. When we're bluffing with no pair, we want our villain to have a lot of relatively weak but stronger hands than us. Huge bluffs against a polarized range of hands we beat and very strong hands is no bueno. So yeah, I don't like that you risked over 2k to win $500 in this hand.

He doesn't only have the nut flush, obviously. He will have it a small % of the time. I mean, if he isn't b/f with 44, he probably takes the same line OTR with the nut flush. That seems pretty results-oriented but x/c, x/c, x/ship brick rivers isn't a terrible line for the nut flush. Just a more tricky way of playing it imo.

Yay, here comes bunch of result oriented "I told you so" posts.

Results are meaningless to me.

If I were playing against an unknown, I would never call in this spot and I would never be worrying about someone making $1860 bluff at me.

Great job, fictional TAG villain.

I think it's pretty terrible. I mean so many people in your spot, TAGs or not, are just going to check back AK and AA on river. Sure, you pick up the occasional 3rd barrel bluff, but it's more likely that a 4th spade hits and you lose all possibility of additional action.

My point to what I said is not having the As at least gives us some showdown value against hands like AsJx and AsTx. So we've at least got some equity in the pot. Maybe not much, but some... OTOH, we block KxQs (one of the most likely hands to bluff out). When we bomb river, we've gotta consider our EV from shoving vs our EV from checking back. Blocking KxQs reduces our shove EV. I mean, we're basically counting on villain to fold flushes and boats at least two thirds of the time. We're not getting much higher than 70%, especially cause 99 is in there (out of the 4 possible flopped sets) and we'd usually (but not always) expect to hear from a flush. So maybe we win $1000 (70%) and lose $1860 (30%) of the time = $142... I think not having the As means that villain might have one of the AsX hands like 15% of the time.... In this case, our shove EV would be $142, while our check-back EV would be $150.... So yeah, I maintain that your line is spew.