Should I be 4bet squeezing AKo? - Live Low-stakes No Limit Poker Forum

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Should I be 4bet squeezing AKo?

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11-09-2023 , 03:38 PM

maromb78

journeyman

Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 376

1/3 nl. Hero has just arrived at the table. This will be my first hand dealt. V1 young Asian male. When I sit down I caught the tail end of him losing a large pot. He's short stacked now with about $80. Position is BB. I didn't see the whole hand but based on his reaction it looks like he just took a beat. V2 is an elderly white male in his 70's. $200. sitting directly to my left on the BTN

Table folds to me and I bring it in for $15. V2 flat calls, V1 3 bets all in.

First question should this be a 4 bet shove to get BTN to fold?

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11-09-2023 , 03:50 PM

davomalvolio

self-banned

Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 2,082

Mandatory 4-bet, yes. There’s $100 out there and if you just call you’ll be OOP to V2, who’ll only have a half-pot bet of $120 behind….and then what’s your plan if the flop comes down J96?

You can just call with AA. But not AK.

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11-09-2023 , 03:55 PM

gobbledygeek

Poet Laureate of LLSNL

Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 36,584

I would definitely shove here as we want to isolate the all-in player and be the only one who has a shot at his money (especially since a lol $80 stack in a 1/3 NL game can go in with such a wide range, especially after a stealy looking LP open and weak looking flat). Also puts the Button in a gross spot with middling pairs where he often makes the mistake of folding them (a huge coup for us). Flatting also puts us in a stoopid spot where the pot will be $240 with just $120 left and then what on whiffed flops (checking to fold where we put in almost half our stack to not even realize our equity?).

Gforumaggrotard,ldoG

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11-09-2023 , 04:14 PM

Playbig2000

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 12,062

yes, jam. He's only got 185 left anyway.

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11-09-2023 , 05:21 PM

009285832

journeyman

Join Date: Jan 2018 Posts: 344

Depends. What do you like? Are you playing for fun or money? Do you want high risk or low risk. You have a good hand. Most people would try to isolate but an OMC claling a bet likely has a hand and there's a good chance he's calling no matter. You can call it to try to bring him in and then just ham any flop. At the end of the day, you're calling anyways so its' not like there's much at risk either way.

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11-09-2023 , 05:48 PM

maromb78

journeyman

Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 376

Spoiler:

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11-09-2023 , 06:08 PM

gobbledygeek

Poet Laureate of LLSNL

Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 36,584

As mentioned above, I don't think "getting greedy" applies to flatting AK here (especially when we'll whiff so many flops), and more applies to flatting with hugenormous pairs.

GcluelessgreedynoobG

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11-09-2023 , 07:14 PM

Joe-exotic69

old hand

Join Date: Apr 2020 Posts: 1,379

Lol « i got greedy » dont be afraid to say that you were afraid of AA or KK, no one’s gonna judge you here.

As played yeah you should’ve jammed pre 100bbs deep.

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11-09-2023 , 07:30 PM

Stupidbanana

old hand

Join Date: Dec 2014 Posts: 1,847

Quote:

Originally Posted by maromb78

Spoiler:

Exact same thing happened to me awhile back. Except I was in the blinds and it went:

MP open
LP call
I 3-bet AKo from SB
MP 4-bet all-in
LP call
I debate 5-bet or call but just call.

Flop A-K-9.

Stacks go in and he has 99.

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11-09-2023 , 08:39 PM

#10

Mlark

old hand

Join Date: Dec 2022 Posts: 1,849

Mandatory jam pre. AK isn't a hand to get greedy with pre anyways. When you jam, you are okay with v2 folding pocket pairs and random hands with equity.

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11-09-2023 , 09:32 PM

#11

Playbig2000

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 12,062

This is almost as similar to losing with kings vs aces with a 20bb eff stack. The hand played itself out, were you upset you didn't fold?

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11-09-2023 , 09:53 PM

#12

maromb78

journeyman

Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 376

Quote:

Originally Posted by Playbig2000

This is almost as similar to losing with kings vs aces with a 20bb eff stack. The hand played itself out, were you upset you didn't fold?

No definitely not. Im more upset I didn’t ship it pre. At the time I was a little surprised the old man called. I really didn’t think he would commit that much pre flop. However after a few hours of playing with him it made more sense to me. He had only begun playing a few months ago and really didn’t understand ranges or pot odds. Had this hand played out a few hours later I’m sure I would have shipped it in pre.

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11-09-2023 , 10:04 PM

#13

maromb78

journeyman

Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 376

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stupidbanana

Wow same flop and all. Banana I feel like we’ve shared a special bond now.

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11-09-2023 , 11:20 PM

#14

docvail

veteran

Join Date: May 2023 Posts: 2,489

Just close your eyes and jam pre.

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11-10-2023 , 12:10 AM

#15

Mlark

old hand

Join Date: Dec 2022 Posts: 1,849

Quote:

Originally Posted by Playbig2000

This is almost as similar to losing with kings vs aces with a 20bb eff stack. The hand played itself out, were you upset you didn't fold?

It's not similar at all. The difference is AA vs KK are two unfoldable hands at 20 bb pre. Here, OP is only asking if he should have 4bet shoved, and he should have. He's not upset he didn't fold.

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11-10-2023 , 11:07 AM

#16

Playbig2000

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 12,062

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mlark

It's not similar at all. The difference is AA vs KK are two unfoldable hands at 20 bb pre. Here, OP is only asking if he should have 4bet shoved, and he should have. He's not upset he didn't fold.

He was probably likely still calling a jam pre, so it was just a cooler.

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11-10-2023 , 12:05 PM

#17

Mlark

old hand

Join Date: Dec 2022 Posts: 1,849

Quote:

Originally Posted by Playbig2000

He was probably likely still calling a jam pre, so it was just a cooler.

1st of all, it's not given that he is going to flat 99 and then overcall a 4bet jam. 2nd of all, regardless of the result and what villain actually had, it was a mistake not to rejam AKo. OP had a legitimate question and it got answered. There is no need to troll him and compare this situation to whining about losing KK to AA at 20 bb.

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11-10-2023 , 12:11 PM

#18

Playbig2000

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 12,062

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mlark

I'm not trolling I'm helping the OP understand how important it is to accept these types of losses, which I compared to losing aces vs kings (not much he can do. He realized he shoulda jammed, but the end result would have probably been the same anyway with this dynamic).

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11-13-2023 , 06:08 PM

#19

haha_TP

grinder

Join Date: May 2014 Posts: 594

Yes, I think you should 100% OP.

Edit: He def would've folded 99 to a 4-bet shove if he's an OMC

Last edited by haha_TP; 11-13-2023 at 06:16 PM.

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11-13-2023 , 06:13 PM

#20

haha_TP

grinder

Join Date: May 2014 Posts: 594

If you guys had JJ-TT and were the player on the button, would you call the 4-bet shove? What range do you have for each player?

I think JJ is a call and TT is too loose (unless people are going HAM)

I think the ranges would be something like this:
OR raise + 4-bet all in: TT+, AQs+, AK
SB 3-bet jam: 77+, ATs+, AJo+, KQs

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11-14-2023 , 10:46 AM

#21

Playbig2000

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 12,062

Quote:

Originally Posted by haha_TP

Edit: He def would've folded 99 to a 4-bet shove if he's an OMC

The guy wasn't described as an OMC, there weren't any reads on him. I know plenty of old players in their 70's and 80's that are pretty splashy players, being old doesn't mean they only play the nuts. He called the $80 all in, for another 120 more I think he would have likely called, as hero would look like he's trying to isolate him to get it heads up.

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11-16-2023 , 12:07 AM

#22

donkatruck

old hand

Join Date: Jan 2013 Posts: 1,959

Quote:

Originally Posted by Playbig2000

I think you misread the action. V2 called the $15, has not yet acted on the $80 or potential jam. I think he 90% folds 99 here and he probably should unless Hero and V1 are both Nik Airball.

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11-16-2023 , 12:14 AM

#23

submersible

old hand

Join Date: Jul 2021 Posts: 1,821

i mean pre is a jam and not even close unless v2 is like absurd but having gotten to the flop i think basically any size is better than all in. i get its a 1/2 pot sized bet but its a dry side pot on ak9r and hes probably got like 0-8% equity almost always

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