1/2 tight table,average open raise 10 - 20,V1, plays tight, V2 plays very tight post flop, but makes strange decisions, cause trying to pout opponents on exact hand e.g. I saw him just call with a full house on the river and saying I thought you had four of a kind.
Hero button 220 A5 off, V1 and V2 have hero covered
UTg calls, V2 calls , MP calls, folds to Co who calls, Hero raises to 15, SB (V1) calls, folded to V2 who quckly calls, the rest fold.

flop (53) Js 8s 4c
checked to hero who bets 30
sb(V1) folds, V2 after short think calls

turn (113) 4h
check, check

river (113) 6c
V2 checks, hero? (also any thought s on previous streets thinking and play are welcome)

Check. You have sd value.

You can't rep much after checking the turn. I'm calling with any pair if I'm him. He could have missed flush/straight draws and your ace high is gonna go be good here a fair amount of the time.

River as played is a check.

Pre is bigger raise. 3 calls + blinds left to act, I'm going more 18-22ish for balance when we have a legit hand and still want callers

2 barrel the OTT
check river as played

Preflop: A5o is pretty weak hand and you will do very well to show a profit playing this hand after 2 tightish limpers have already put money in. I would fold or maybe even overlimp on BTN.

Flop: I am checking back. Flush draw, straight draws, no high card so pocket pairs are likely to call. Don't see any argument to bet unless hoping to fire multiple barrels which given you checked back turn I assume was not the plan.

As played I would check back river, because I agree with Valuebluff.

all,

what is villain's range? Of that range, what do we truly have showdown value against? can we get better hands to fold by betting the river?

instead of just saying 'we have showdown value' and advocating a check, figure out if we actually have showdown value.

Gotta double barrel here on that turn.

In spots like this, I actually like to say something like, "No free flush draws..." and bet $75.

V will then conclude you aren't drawing to a flush and thus will put you on a value hand and fold pretty much everything but a really strong Jx hand and even sometimes (if he is semi-nitty) fold a strong Jx and say, "You got an overpair..."

Also, if villain is as MUBsy as you describe (i.e. he doesn't raise river full house because he's scared of quads) heads up, I'm triple barrel shoving this guy with napkins, paying particular attention to sizing so I leave him enough on the river to fold to a shove .

There are 3 MUBsy players who I regularly play with that I literally call 100% of all their raises when I'm in position or heads up with them. If I spike my hand, I extract max value letting them drive the action and then leading into them on river for 2/3 pot. But if I miss my hand, I raise them on turn and shove them on river and they fold 100% of the time (often showing me AA or KK and folding because they "know" I hit a set, flush, straight, trips, whatever...).

Basically, once your villain says, "Man, I didn't raise with my full house because I was scared he had quads..."
I'm putting that villain on my MUBsy list and then I'm gonna barrel him like we're playing Donkey Kong

Anyone else want to bet $20 for value against KsXs?

Grunch.

I dislike the raise pre-flop with such an ugly hand and the cbet on the flop with no equity on this flop texture is pretty "meh" IMO. Turn check is good. Now check the river, your hand has showdown value against missed flush and straight draws and a bet on your part would make little sense so I would expect to get looked up by most two pair hands.

We have showdown value against all busted draws that aren't AsXs and all straight draws that don't contain a 6.

Do I need to list actual card combos?

T9o, T9ss, KQss, KTss, K9ss, K7ss, KsXs, QTss, QTo, Q9o, 97o, etc...

As for getting a stronger hand to fold... Some players will fold 55/77/33/22/8x OTR to a bet, but I think most would call.

Not really, unless you think that KsXs would call a river bet in addition to it having to out weigh the two pair type hands in Villains range.

I get what you are going for here... but IME, just because a player won't raise with hand "X" because he's afraid he's beat, doesn't mean he will fold it. I find that these players just go into c/c mode and don't fold... which actually maximizes value against me because I was never going to call their turn barrel anyway... sigh.

As for the double barrel, as far as board texture is concerned, isn't this a very poor board/turn card to double barrel? Possibly the worst card OTT to double barrel?

I find I have a very low success rate when bluffing Jxy boards, especially when x = T-7.

Thx, everyone.
Well, the conclusion I drew from your replies is that I should have checked the river, cause it seems that I have sd against his missed draws and the fact that I am gonna have hard time of making him fold better hands after I checked the turn. In the hand I bet $65 and got called, although he took some time before calling . He had 54 for trip fours, I don't know why he took time, maybe he was considering a raise. After the hand I felt that my bet was a bit stupid, but still couldn't figure out exactly and clearly why.When i was deciding to bet I thought that he might fold his flush draws that contained a 6 in them (therefore becoming two pair) and that by making him fold hands that I have showdown value against I will not have to show my hand. This second reason looks a bit nonworthy I think, from this perspective.

I like dgiharrises way of dealing with MUBsy players that he described here. I will definitely try that approach in the future.Although this time the stack size wouldn't let me with enough for the river barrel if I would have bet the turn.

Also, the reason that I raised pf in this spot is that I was card dead for a while, so I thought that I am just gonna pick everything up with that raise or OTF and also to help get action when I do pick up a hand.

but what I'm saying is that it's more than just "player won't raise X hand...."

Its the information said player conveyed during the hand that is key for evaluating what type of player he is.

There is a difference between someone not raising TPGK vs someone not raising the 2nd nuts. Then there is a difference between someone not raising 2nd nuts vs someone angsting over running up against quads when he has 2nd nuts.

Poker is a game of incomplete information (especially the live game). Players that are able to infer and correlate that incomplete information with other "possible" traits a villain may have will obtain a HUGE advantage.

For instance, when I notice that a player doesn't bluff a busted draw while in position WHEN weakness has been shown throughout a hand, that tells me a LOT about said player's skill level. Based off of that one play, I'm able to determine that said player is: weak tight, passive, not very knowledgeable, risk averse, doesn't value bet, doesn't raise light, has a 3-betting range of AA/KK, will probably fold to strong lines if we have a good image...

but wait a minute, how can you know all of that based off of just one play???
Well, the same way that Amazon or Pandora works. You get one data point and you correlate it with the traits of the majority of people that share that same data point.

If you like Pearl Jam, odds are based on that one data point you like Creed and Red Hot Chili Peppers and probably don't like DMX and Common. Are there people out there that like all of the above groups. Sure, but based off of that one data point we can infer a lot, then when we get a second data point we can better correlate data....

same thing in poker...

So, because villain was all worried about quads that tells me he is MUBsy, and if he is MUBsy we can barrel his ass and he will fold everything but really strong hands. And in poker, the math says that MOST of the time he is not going to have a really strong hand that can stand the heat.

This is why aggressive players tend to do better than non-aggressive players. The only downside is that occasionally you value own yourself but that is okay.

Or to put it another way, if you do not occasionally value own yourself with plays like this, then you aren't being aggressive enough.

Yeah... I'm just not sure the "flatting with a boat hand" is indicative of anything more than Villain is missing out on value with strong made hands. I doubt that Villain had any real intentions of folding that hand (obv not b/c his hand was so strong in this case). But I think the same can be said about hands that are not as strong... That is to say that when weakness is shown by this player type, we can necessarily conclude that he is weak and will fold to further aggression. Just a quick example...

Vil raises pre with AK, Hero calls with XX.

Flop KT4r

Vil bets, Hero calls.

Turn 9

Now Villain is scared that the straight hit, so he checks. Hero smells weakness and pounces! But in reality, despite being scared of the straight, Villain is never actually going to fold this hand... Unless of course, we go absolutely nuts and shovel a ton of money into the pot.

Honest question for you... Are you routinely using your entire stack to bluff weak players off of hands that are relatively weak, but in the eyes of an experienced player would only have value against a bluff? Like in the example I gave, if hero OTT made a PSB and got called and then shoved the river for 3/4 PSB.

Also, Ide like to get your opinion on a double/triple barrel in this hand based on board texture alone.

Players that have demonstrated that they are MUBsy and can fold TPGK type hands I will absolutely size my bets so that I can retake the initiative on the turn and then shove them on river.

But I only do so when I have a strong image and have recently shown down some big hands.

However, I can't stress this enough that said player has to have demonstrated some overt "scared money MUBsy" actions in prior hands. Once I sense someone is scared money (especially if they are a bit deep) I will definitely put their feet to the fire when I have a great read on their hand/range.

Lastly, I will say that I have removed 90% of my triple barrel bluffs out of my game and I'm extremely selective about who I target and about manipulating stack sizes so that V has more than enough chips behind so he can fold river when I shove.

Dude,

Nobody likes Creed.