hero : 23 in bb

limped pot, hero checks,

flop: 843 pot:12


villain1 (older nit style, limps in a decent amount pre, slowplays a decent amount. Doesn't put in a lot of money preflop usually even with strong hands)


Villain 2 (older fish)


Villain1 bets 10, villain 2 calls, hero calls

turn: 8439 ($40)

Hero check, villain 1 check, villain 2 check.

River 84392 ($40)

hero bets 35, villain 1 says something asking if I missed flush draw, hero is stoic. villain raises to 75 total, villain 2 folds, hero?

Nitty old guy gives a speech and then raises? Easy fold. Bottom two is a bluff catcher at this point and nitty old guys don't bluff too frequently. If this is his one bluff for the week, then nh.

Can't put villain bdfd ,I call and look

Old nit raises rivetr, almost always nuts.
Fold bottom two anyday..its never good

What are stack sizes? Consider x/r otf.

As played, easy fold otr.

You would never get value for a flush with this line cause it's so obvious that's what you have. He read it. It wasn't hard. So fold, and kick yourself for not bombing the flop when you had tons of equity.

Leading river is terrible too. Just check/call and make money from his one-pair hands and bluffs, and make a small pay off to his better two pair and back door flush

Your not making sense... It's so obvious that I have a flush? I don't have a flush.

Check/call is a bad line on river because he doesn't valuebet thin and will check back most stuff I beat, meanwhile he will call a lead with topair; so yea leading river is not terrible sorry.

Also I'm not kicking myself for not bombing flop. He is betting a pretty tight range and will not fold on this board, we have history and he knows I often play draws agressivly. There were also players to act behind on the flop.

Ok, I admit it was a little confusing, but not really. What I meant was, if you play this way, and a heart falls, you'll never get value for your flush if you make it. Don't take my word for it. The villain sniffed it out.

Now you're not making sense. If you believe that he will check back stuff that you beat, then it should be obvious that he would raise stuff that has you crushed. So this hand shouldn't even be a question. Fold.

And it's pretty dubious to think he'll call with top pair, after it became second pair on the turn, and after 56, A5, and BD clubs got there on the river.

Well, we need stack sizes, which you've left out of your example. But you have the most equity on the flop, and you bet the least. I'd kick myself.

yea really, it was. I'm not taking your word for it. Your just making matter of fact statements which are strictly your opinion. If I check/call flop I will never get any value ever if I make a flush? what if I bet 2 bucks? Here we go again I DIDN'T have a flush, he didn't sniff anything out. He/villains always put you on a flush draw regardless it doesn't mean you will get ZERO value EVERY time, and it's pretty naïve to make an all or nothing statement like that. Obviously sizing etc would be different if the flush had come in. I have enough equity to call regardless even if I "never" get payed. once again... I often do play draws aggressively and villain knows this, so it doesn't make sense to try and blow him off it when he is betting flop with a tight range to begin with. Also it's range balancing, sometimes I am check/calling made hands and the fact that I have history with villain and he knows I often semibluff means that he can discount some flushes from my range when it comes in, thus I will often get some value out of it.




Not sure what doesn't make sense to you. He is more likely to call thin than value bet thin, and unlikely to bluff. Youll just have to take my word for it, however I did say he was nitty in the player description.

The only thing your right about is that it's probably a fold. I post it because I wan't to verify and get other respectful opinions, wether it seems like an obvious spot or not.


150bbs effective, I cover. There are other factors besides "the most equity."
And just to clarify, I didn't bet anything on the flop, I check called.

What?

Seriously what?

Just stop what you're doing, and go back to the beginning. And I mean the VERY beginning. Dust off an old Sklansky paperback and look up "Gap Concept"

Why do you assume V is familiar with Gap Theory? I agree with Ozmosis that he will get more value by b/f bottom two here than if he c/c. Nitty guys don't like to bet rivers with top pair type hands, but they sure love to call with them.

As played, OP, fold to V's raise on river.

c/r flop and bomb turn. stack sizes?
as played river is b/f. c/c loses value.

Any one pair hand that bet on the flop became second pair on the turn. The only way we are up against just top pair on the river is if this nitty player led the flop in a 6 way limped pot with 9x air.

I'm hearing that c/c the river "loses value". From what? You think he calls with A8? I'd believe that he would bet A8, T9, 97, 77 after we check turn and river. I woudln't believe that he calls with any of those after we bet a river where at least three plausible draws come in (56, A5, Clubs).

I like your thinking all through this thread.

I would normally bet 25-30 on the river instead of 35 but that's a tiny thing.

I think you played the hand fine assuming you folded the river. Villain could easily play 56 this way.

The SPR is 25. I'm never trying to play for stacks in this spot even if the flush comes in. Don't really understand anyone complaining that we're not playing for stacks with a pair of threes plus whatever equity we have.

I'm not sure how perceptive or observant your villain is in this spot but in general if I'm in the big blind in a limped pot and villains have a clue, I will try to apply pressure. Any time I'm uncapped I try to take advantage.

as to the hand, I think it's a raise/fold river spot, again if villain thinks some what, I'd turn my hand into a bluff, if not (In reality I would call because I'm not good enough to not pay off $40 more or whatever) it's a fold.

still it's hard for him to have the nuts here but he can have a bunch of "stronger' hands, when you bet/raise river you rep the nuts pretty well imo.

Fold you ain't good hardly ever