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Review my line on these two hands Review my line on these two hands

10-27-2010 , 08:16 AM
Both of these hands were played live...

$2/$5 Blinds
fold, UTG+1 limps, 3 folds, HJ calls, CO calls, Hero is BTN with JhJd and raises to $35

UTG+1 calls, CO calls.

Flop ($117): 6h 7h 2d

2 checks, Hero bets $77, UTG Raises to $250, CO folds, Hero calls

Turn ($617): 6h 7h 2d Kh

UTG+1 bets $300, Hero folds.

I know UTG+1 pretty well. He's very tight, but a very solid regular (it's China if anyone here plays at The Rivers Casino)

My image is aggressive and he knows I will cbet this flop with my full range. He doesn't play back at me much, if at all, without a good hand. That being said, I thought that folding to a check raise here would be very exploitable so I elected to call and re-eval the turn.

After I folded, I showed JJ I was criticized by villain for not folding or jamming the flop (idk why the I would ever jam here? Calling keeps he bluffing frequency up and not many worse hands are calling nor better hands folding.). I don't mind my play here although I could have just folded to the raise on the flop.

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Hand 2
$2/$5
3 limpers, SB completes, Hero is BB with AJos

Flop ($20) 4d 6c Jh

SB checks, Hero bets $16, 2 folds, BTN calls, SB folds.

Turn ($52) 4d 6c Jh Ks

Hero checks, BTN bets $40, Hero calls.

The BTN had been playing pretty friendly showing his hand anytime someone asked in previous hands. He played a lot of small connectors/2 gaps/3 gap type hands, and his preflop raise ranges were very balanced. After I began to think about making the call he said he would show me if I folded and all but said he had a king.

At this point I'm thinking there is no reason for him to have a King in his hand and I'm putting him on an open ended straight draw, but with the possibility that he's leveling me with a set because I know there is no reason for him to have a king.

We were involved a few hands ago where I folded top 2 pair (correctly) to his river value bet.

River ($132) 4d 6c Jh Ks 8c

BTN bets $100, Hero calls.
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10-27-2010 , 09:00 AM
Hand 1: Having played a billion hands with Paul over the years his range here is a set or any combo draw like 8h9h. You don't list the stack sizes so I can't really tell you what i woulda done otherwise. I prob woulda auto mucked the flop check raise since Paul doesn't really get outta line if he views you as a decent player. Looks like you were pretty deep by the bet sizes. And considering the flush gets there immediately and he comes barreling out your fold is pretty easy.
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10-27-2010 , 09:09 AM
Hand 2: Once again no stack sizes, start listing them it will help people help you. Check calling here I don't really like you get relatively no info by check calling other than his speech. I woulda probably led out on the turn and folded to a raise, you also coulda check raised if he seemed uncomfortable by you contemplating a decision on turn. Your river call makes no sense if you put him on open ended straight draw and it gets there and you still call.
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10-27-2010 , 12:21 PM
Please see the sticky on how to post a HH. Stack sizes are important.

Hand 1, thank "Paul" for the free coaching lesson.
Hand 2, bet the turn.

There are more mistakes going on in these hands, but all you asked for was a line check.
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10-27-2010 , 01:26 PM
Hand 1, shove or fold otf. With the described villain all he can have is a set or a flush draw. If we call flop we plan to call turn and river if they blank and stack off vs sets anyway so just jam if you intend to continue (thats a big if). As played turn is a trivial fold with the flush getting there, I'm not sure why you showed your hand.

I don't think folding to a check raise is very exploitable at all, in fact the only way it is exploitable is if you show your hand as you did. Calling is a lot more exploitable since villain can barrel you off hands if he misses some kind of draw and you really have no idea where you are at while villain knows you have a weakish overpair. You're pretty much calling and hoping he checks the turn and river, which is NEVER going to happen. Also as you described this guy I doubt you need to worry about him exploiting you.

Hand 2: Raise pre imo, noone is limping in with a hand that beats AJ. You can bet/fold the turn for value as well, villain cant have Kx type hands so the turn is blankish in that all you need to worry about is K8 and maybe KJ.

As played you put him on an oesd which got there, so why call the river? I really don't see villain showing up with 35 there, in fact I'd be a lot more inclined to put him on 2pair than a straight draw since if he was going to play a straight draw aggressively he would raise the flop, or if he called then take a free card on the turn.
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10-28-2010 , 03:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BDRaddest
Hand 2: Once again no stack sizes, start listing them it will help people help you. Check calling here I don't really like you get relatively no info by check calling other than his speech. I woulda probably led out on the turn and folded to a raise, you also coulda check raised if he seemed uncomfortable by you contemplating a decision on turn. Your river call makes no sense if you put him on open ended straight draw and it gets there and you still call.
Hand 1 villain was about 2.8k deep, hand 2 villain was 2k deep maybe a little more. I had them covered in both hands.

The villain in hand 2 just saw me make a big fold so I was checking to induce a bluff. I was strong in the hand but wanted to look weak because I can pretty comfortably call a bet since there is no reason for him to have a King. Also I don't want him to semi bluff raise me off the hand.

I mistyped the river card, I don't remember what it was. River was a blank though, and he did have 53os for an open ender.

If I lead the turn and river I will get called on the turn and a fold or raise on the river. I'm putting my opponent on a draw, and I should have made him pay for a free card, but I don't see a reason to be the river... check/call to induce a bluff from an aggressive player.

My biggest concern with this hand is my turn play.
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10-28-2010 , 04:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by papagavin
Hand 1, shove or fold otf. With the described villain all he can have is a set or a flush draw. If we call flop we plan to call turn and river if they blank and stack off vs sets anyway so just jam if you intend to continue (thats a big if). As played turn is a trivial fold with the flush getting there, I'm not sure why you showed your hand.

I don't think folding to a check raise is very exploitable at all, in fact the only way it is exploitable is if you show your hand as you did. Calling is a lot more exploitable since villain can barrel you off hands if he misses some kind of draw and you really have no idea where you are at while villain knows you have a weakish overpair. You're pretty much calling and hoping he checks the turn and river, which is NEVER going to happen. Also as you described this guy I doubt you need to worry about him exploiting you.

Hand 2: Raise pre imo, noone is limping in with a hand that beats AJ
I forgot to list the stack sizes, but we're 500-600 BBs deep so I'm obviously not shoving here.

I showed my hand here to basically let the table know that when I cbet on these small boards it is with an overpair and I'm not just firing with my whole range.

I called his flop check raise pretty quickly with the intention of bluffing when a heart hit the board. I considered making it $800 on the turn and shoving a non paired river when the heart peeled, but I felt like it was pretty easy to put me on a flush draw on the flop and Paul fired anyways so I figured him for a flush and folded.


Hand 2: I'm not raising AJ OOP in a multi way pot. People are limping in with better hands at this table. As I said in my other post I mistyped the river card and don't remember exactly what it was, just some blank.

Reviewing the hand, I like the way I played hand 2, but I wish I would have folded to the flop raise in hand 1. I just think folding to a flop raise here looks weak and opens my cbets up to getting checked raised by marginal hands... agree disagree? papagayin is probably right saying Paul wouldn't play back at me here with air though.
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10-28-2010 , 04:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KyddDynamite
I forgot to list the stack sizes, but we're 500-600 BBs deep so I'm obviously not shoving here.

I showed my hand here to basically let the table know that when I cbet on these small boards it is with an overpair and I'm not just firing with my whole range.

I called his flop check raise pretty quickly with the intention of bluffing when a heart hit the board.
I considered making it $800 on the turn and shoving a non paired river when the heart peeled, but I felt like it was pretty easy to put me on a flush draw on the flop and Paul fired anyways so I figured him for a flush and folded.


Hand 2: I'm not raising AJ OOP in a multi way pot. People are limping in with better hands at this table. As I said in my other post I mistyped the river card and don't remember exactly what it was, just some blank.

Reviewing the hand, I like the way I played hand 2, but I wish I would have folded to the flop raise in hand 1. I just think folding to a flop raise here looks weak and opens my cbets up to getting checked raised by marginal hands... agree disagree? papagayin is probably right saying Paul wouldn't play back at me here with air though.
I highlighted what look to me like sizeable leaks in your game. If you are only c-betting with overpair type hands then you want the table to think you are betting with air and call you so unless after showing you intended to start c betting more when you miss, then showing is pretty stupid.

Calling that flop is horrible with JJ. You have a big overpair and you want to start taking a bluff line? There aren't actually that many fd's in your range as the PFR aside from KQhh type hands of which there are few. All villain can have that beats your JJ is a set and I doubt a set is going to just check/fold when a flush card hits since your range is weighted more to overpairs and they have a redraw regardless.

The fact that you ditched your plan so easily when the opportunity to continue it came along really makes it seem more like you called simply because you didn't want to fold, but without a clear idea of what your plan was. Even if you intend to rep the flush, you can hardly expect paul to just check/fold once the draw gets there, and if you suddenly think its possible he has a flush then that counters your argument for not raising the flop.

For hand 2 I still think its a clear raise pre flop and I believe if you intend to call a bet on the river you should just make the bet yourself because you can get called by worse J's pretty frequently.

As played we know villain has something since he called your flop bet and I just don't think he'd play a straight draw like this, so IMO him betting on the river means either he turned mid pair on the flop into a bluff, or much more likely he can beat your 2nd pair top kicker.
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10-30-2010 , 12:48 AM
No, I'm cbetting my entire range on this type of board all day. I like your argument for the flop call being horrible.

I wasn't expecting him to check fold to one street when the flush hit, but if he checked when the heart hit I would set up a river shove on the turn and then jam the river. I think a tight player folds here because although there aren't many hearts in my range, I'm not doing this with many other hands.
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10-30-2010 , 12:49 PM
Hand 1. I don't mind the flop call. Lots of combo draws raising here. Turn easy fold.

Hand 2. Bet turn in general. Any good player is betting that turn after your check and probably river too.
After u lead turn. C/C c/f read dependent on river only hand beating u is kj here

Btw raising flop is spewy as hell on hand 1. Everyhand in his range probably isn't folding after that raise...two pairs sets flush/straight draws. So I think I convinced myself to fold flop as any competent player isn't checking enough on the turn to make this right.

Last edited by rizasutton; 10-30-2010 at 12:58 PM.
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10-30-2010 , 02:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KyddDynamite
No, I'm cbetting my entire range on this type of board all day. I like your argument for the flop call being horrible.

I wasn't expecting him to check fold to one street when the flush hit, but if he checked when the heart hit I would set up a river shove on the turn and then jam the river. I think a tight player folds here because although there aren't many hearts in my range, I'm not doing this with many other hands.
You could very easily spew 500bb into the nuts here if you tried that imo, his range is mainly sets and heart draws so this would be a pretty bad time to bluff. Even if you catch him on a set, AND the heart hits AND the board doesnt pair, your relying on him making a pretty big fold because you really do not have that many flushes in your range, and then he has a flush himself a big portion of the time.

I think its best to just fold the flop here, like, we're just too deep. If hes on a draw hes going to fire away and we can't stand to call big turn and river bets. I'm sure you can find much much much better spots.
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11-02-2010 , 08:26 AM
I played hand 1 pretty bad, but I like my hand 2 play. There is no reason for him to have a King in this spot - even KJ because I think this particular player would have raised me on the flop. I can either bet the turn and river with villain folding on the river, or check call them both letting an aggressive player try to bluff at them. I'm not sure why people hate this line so much and see how betting is much better.
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