1/2 NLHE in Houston

$700 effective with main villain, villain covers.

Villain is unknown 30s white guy, we just got moved to the table and this is our 3rd hand.

OTTH:

Villain opens UTG+1 to $12
Very bad fish calls +2
Hero 3 bets to $55 w/ KQ
folds around and both Villains call

Flop ($168): K 8 7

Villain donks $60
Fish folds
Hero calls

Are you ever raising here??

Turn ($288): 3

Villain bets $150
Hero calls

Thoughts? Whats your plan if villain checks or jams brick rivers?

Thanks!

Yes, I would min raise in this situation almost 100% of time. We have the nut range. We could have AK, KK, AA as well as rarely middle or bottom set. We could also have any pocket pair from 99 to QQ. I think all of these hands can min raise here as it will put our opponent to a serious dilemma as to weather he wants to continue OOP and potentially prepare to play for stacks.

If I had to guess, the hands villain would bet small like this on flop would include sets, any pp from 99 to QQ, and KQ. We block AK, KK, and KQ. Villain would likely have 4-bet with AA, KK, AK, QQ. We are crushing his range. If he did have AK or AA, he would likely have checked the flop to let us make a continuation bet.

His leading out is almost always a pp like TT or JJ. He knows if he checks, we may make a continuation bet with any holding. This is a sort of blocking bet that is also intended to help define our range. Often, if we just call, he will make a pot sized bet on the turn with his entire range, thinking we are scared he has a king or AA or we have a weak king ourselves. Do not fall for this. He is setting up a large turn bet bluff.

If you just call here and he shoves the turn, you will have a tough decision to make as he may in fact have a strong made hand mixed in with his bluffs once in a while including AK. Do we really want to just call and hope he shoves so we can pick off his bluff shove but occasionally get stacked when he does have AA?

On the other hand, if we just min raise, he is no better off. He does not know if we are strong or weak. We pre-empt his turn shove bluff. If he calls our min raise, he likely does have a strong hand which he will now want to slow play with a check on the turn to induce us to bet. So if he calls and checks the turn, I should mostly check behind or bet half pot.

If you check behind on the turn, he may still barrel on the river, which you can call. If he makes a smaller value bet, you may be behind, but you will likely have to call. Until you have seen him play in this situation, it is hard to know what he will do. By checking behind on the turn, you look weak. So, he will usually value bet his strong hands small to get called by weaker hands such as QQ or KQ and will mostly jam with his bluffs.

Why are you 3betting an unknown who raised in EP with KQ?

Sorry I got started on this hand and forgot you had already called the flop bet. My prior comments were advocating min raising the flop, but can still be applied equally well on the turn. When we call his small flop bet, he will often fire another barrel on the turn. Our call looks weak.

I am surprised he did not bet bigger on the turn. He may still be setting up a shove on the river. If you just call flop and river, you are capping your range as you are not likely to call call with sets. So he can jam the river and get folds a high percentage of the time. If you raise the turn, you can often force him to check down the river even when he does have AK or AA. If you just call the turn, he will value bet his TPTK and may shove bluff a fair amount of the time with hands such as AQ which block AK and AA.

so you basically want to help your villain

He is 3-betting with KQ because most players open too wide from early position and often do not 4-bet enough and will defend OOP with weaker hands too often as they do not correctly fold enough to our 3-bet. We will have position when we do get called and we can often steal many pots on the flop or the turn. Stacks are deep. I totally agree with your pre-flop 3-bet, but we do have to proceed with caution if we get much action post-flop.

I'm probably not 3betting an unknown here unless this is 6max. What is our position?

Flop and turn are easy calls.

If we face a river shove on a brick that's a pretty sick spot but I think we have to call it off.

If he checks a brick river, pot is $588 and we have $435 behind. I can get behind a bet to target Kx or occasionally we get hero'd by something like AQ Not sure on sizing, I think something like ~$200? Kind of gross if he raises.

Not really liking his turn bet as it does look like a value bet. Really need to know his 4-betting pre-flop range. He likely does not 4-bet AK but does AA, KK, QQ. So we may very well be beat here on the turn.

This is why I was advocating a min raise on the flop not the turn. My bad as I had forgotten the action had already proceeded to the turn. I think not min raising the flop was our big mistake. We could have narrowed his range substantially with a 50 dollar min raise on the flop. But now, because we just called, we look weak and he may be betting for value or as a bluff. But now we are facing a bet 3x what we would have been risking with a raise on the flop. We know nothing about his range because we have shown no aggression in the hand despite having been the pre-flop aggressor and we should have taken the betting lead on the flop.

You're right I should have included we're 8 handed, effectively putting us in the HJ.

Because most player's opening ranges are static. They open the same hands on the button as they do UTG

There's a fish in between that will call if +1 folds

I want position.

I dont want to go 6 ways to a flop

My 3! range LP vs EP open is QQ+ & AKs always and partials of AQs, AJs, KQs, QJs & JJ.

How often I go with the partials is going to depend on stack depth, game flow, player types and how many players have called the open. The more players that have called the more likely I am to 3! if stack sizes allow it.

Definitely want to be raising these flops with a wide array of hands. KQ looks good, really only worried about AK that doesn’t 4 bet pre, 88, 77, 87s. Meanwhile we can get value from worse Kx and draws.

Also it’s perfectly fine to 3 bet this hand in this spot. The caller adds dead $ and people tend to play way too many hands from EP in live NL anyway.


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Even though you started 350bb effective, the SPR is only 4 to 5 on the flop, so raising some of your Kx on the flop seems alright since you don’t have to worry that much about being stacked by his two-pair plus. KQss does need a little protection from Ax and clubs.

definitely dont want to be raising donkbets for value except in single raised pots on wet flops where V's will do this just because they have a lot of equity and want to get it in quickly. On this board with this action it looks like V wants to "see where he's at", by raising you tell him he's behind so he folds. He's not gonna lead out and call a raise on this flop with JJ in a 3bet pot OOP. By calling you disguise the strength of your hand, now suddenly if he has a hand like QQ he can put you on JJ or maybe a flush draw and still think his hand is good.

Basically vs donkbets you want to call for value and raise as a bluff. Him barreling the turn is a little scary though, I could see someone donkbetting AK here just because they dont like the idea of checking TPTK and giving away a free card against a potential range (for you) that could consist of TT+. I just dont see us beating anything at this point. I probably still call because I'm bad and pray to the poker gods he gives up on the river. If he ships river I think a fold is in order.

When you say "unknown", I have to ask a few questions. How many hands have you seen him dealt in? Has he been talking to anyone? Is he animated, or still? etc. My point is that, if you're observant, it is rare that someone is completely unknown.

Beyond that, the PFR donking into a 3-bet at 1/2, 1/3 is usually pretty strong. I would like to know how fast he acted and if you caught a chip glance.

Personally, I would proceed with caution.

I’m not letting V draw this cheaply. I make it around 200 looking to gii on every turn except clubs and aces

He was a clean shaven mid 30's white guy with a columbia brand collared sweathsirt and a sports team hat on. I saw him walk in the room 2 or 3 hours prior and buy in for around 300 so I assume he has been running good. Reason is only the regs continuously top off stacks to keep up with the fish when they run good and he didn't give off that vibe. He seemed comfortable but more like he was just having a good time than knew what he was doing.

I guess I should include that but some times when I write hand histories it feels like I'm writing a book and I don't want to make it too long. Plus I was at the table for three hands so I could be way off.

I don't like the 3-bet vs. an unknown, but that's me.

I guess call flop and turn are OK, but I'm not in love with it. I mean, what does he think you have? A flush draw? You 3-bet pre and called his flop donk. He could be "trapping" with AK or AA or even KK. Maybe he has a smaller set? I just don't like it for 350 bb.

I'd be happy with a check/check on river. I'm folding to a shove vs. an unknown. People just don't bluff enough at this level. Once we find out he will, then I'll 3-bet KQs and continue.

All comes down to whether this villain is playing straight forward or is trapping. I generally presume they are playing straight forward until I have reason to think otherwise.

A donk bet is generally a weak blocking bet, trying to get a cheap turn as well as figure out if his weak made hand is good such as QQ on K high board. If we just call, he will sometimes think his hand is good and fire a big bet into us on the turn whether he improves or not. That can make our decision on the turn more difficult.

I think you should raise a min bet on the flop a very high percentage of the time with almost our entire range since we have position and the nut advantage in this spot. We are betting for value with most of our range and bluffing a small percentage of the time. This also builds the pot some, so he will have to make a harder decision on the turn. Will he want to make a pot-sized bluff into us on the turn when we raised his donk bet? He may do this if the pot is small enough, but he may think twice as the pot gets bigger. Most players have a limit as to how much money they will invest as a bluff and even good players will not want to invest a high percentage of their stack on a bluff if they feel we have a very strong hand. Now we are forcing him to play more straight forward, betting his stronger hands for value and for protection so we do not check behind.

On the other hand, a tricky player may donk bet for value with his strong hands hoping we perceive his bet for weakness and re-raise. By him betting first, he forces us to make a decision and gives us an opportunity to make a mistake. If we min raise him back, we are forcing the decision back onto him and giving him another chance to make another mistake.

hate the 3-bet pre vs unknown with chips and looks competent.

V raised pre
led flop
led turn

what are you putting an unknown on for him to do this that your ahead of ?

on the turn I decide here am I calling river if he leads?

if leaning no then fold turn

This is a great point (calling turn should mean calling river), which is another reason I fold turn. The thought of putting almost or all of 350 bb w/ top pair second kicker vs. an unknown -- especially one who at first glance looks competent -- is extremely unappealing.

I think it's OK to have turn calls and river folds but we need to think about how we respond with the rest of our range in this situation and hopefully we have some river calls after calling flop and turn. Like we might decide that we're calling turn and river with AK/AA but call turn/fold river with Kx unimproved.

So if we raise him what do you think he's going to do?

If we min raise him on the flop, he will likely call with his good drawing hands and maybe even some of his top pp hands like QQ and of course AK, KK, and KQ. He will likely fold KJ, KT, AQ, small pp's and non-club suited connector hands like JQ hearts. Mostly he should 3-bet or shove with most of his stronger hands since we have now demonstrated some desire to play a big pot. No need to slow play his monsters like sets. He should mostly give up on the turn with most of his calling hands that do not improve. This may save us from having to call 200 on the turn with his entire range.

If we just call the flop bet, he may take another stab with several bluff hands with a large bet on the turn. We will not be able to narrow his range much at all because our call could easily be a drawing hand or a pp like JJ or even AQ. Being last to act, we will often call a small bet with a wide range to see if he is willing to bet again on the turn. As such, our flop call does not show any strength, it actually signifies weakness, same as if we had check called from early position.

Alright so lets visualize this from V's POV

Hero opens UTG+1 with QQ to $12
Very bad fish calls +2
Villain 3 bets to $55
folds around and Hero + bad fish call

Flop ($168): K 8 7

Hero donks $60 (really?)
Fish folds
Villain raises to $120

Hero..... calls?

Turn ($400): 3

Hero could check-call a small value bet or even a larger bet as a bluff catcher, but should mostly check-fold if villain bets big. The move I like most here would be to lead out with a small blocking bet. Maybe 150. The villain cannot really raise with his one pair hands in this situation. His min raise would be 300. Our bet looks like a value bet with AK but could also be a set. I think KQ likely makes a crying call as does AK and even AA in this situation. If we get raised, we can fold, knowing we were beat.

If we check, we may win when villain checks behind, but we mostly fold to his bigger bets. Anyway, all three are options. Since we bet into him on the flop and called his min raise and are once again leading into him on the river, our hand looks to be very strong. That is the way I would likely play AA from OOP. Point here is to make bets to represent other stronger holdings that we might have. Make the in position player think twice before bluffing or trying to bet thin for value.