Hard Rock Hollywood 1/2, 300 max buy in.

2hrs 50mins in to the session.

V1 HJ ~75. Typical low stakes player. Has gone from steaming to tilted to just plain disgusted; due to Old Man Enigma across the table from us that has successfully bingo'd V for about 600. V has been adding on 100 when his stack dwindles to 100. He hasn't added on this time. Has pushed his seat back from the table and is clearly getting ready to leave.

V2 UTG 300. Just sat down, this will be his first hand.

H LJ 164. This will be the 4th hand I play. The table has experienced high turnover; so I don't think that it matters. V1 is just one of two original players from when the table opened and is oblivious.

PREFLOP

V1 HJ straddles (5), BB calls, V2 UTG raises to 12, next player calls, folds to Hero LJ with AdKd. Hero 3! to 65, V1 says "f it" or something like that and raises all in (~70) and halfway stands up, V2 reraises all in (technically the 5bet?). Hero is getting ~ 3:1 (2.8:1). Hero calls (99)

So here's my primary interest: (as always, your comments on whatever other part of the hand you find noteworthy are appreciated) your range construction for V1 and V2.

I'll post my range construction after initial feedback for the same reason posting hand results should be delayed. I will say this: at a hair under 3:1 pot odds I believed that it was a close call. With the ranges I assigned V1 and V2 I estimated my equity to be closer to 30% than 25.

Well technically we are not really getting 3:1. We are getting 5 to win 205 and 99 to win 99. It's important because we want to try to calculate our EV in each pot as opposed to just looking at it as a whole.

Hold'em Simulation ?
600,000 trials (Randomized)
Hand Equity Wins Ties
AdKd 31.66% 138,680 105,408
JJ+, AK 44.86% 220,360 100,468
20% 23.49% 134,578 15,575


Hold'em Simulation ?
46,232,208 trials (Exhaustive)
Hand Equity Wins Ties
AdKd 42.81% 12,834,291 13,911,393
JJ+, AK 57.19% 19,486,524 13,911,393



The situation doesn't really change if we give villain QQ+ either. We still have such a large share of the main pot that it pays for our modest losses in the side pot. We are making +60 in the main pot and losing only $15 in the side pot.

Thank you for the reply.

I'm sitting here killing time before my job-not job and can't stop thinking about this. It appears that I have a painfully ignorant leak. Now as I'm trying to work through what the correct process is; I'm hoping to not be like someone that won't understand why it doesn't matter if one of your flush outs is at the bottom of the deck when using the 4&2 Rule.

My current thought process when when I faced the all in call is: Assign V1 range. Assign V2 range. Estimate equity vs (V1 range + V2 range). Compare my equity against pot odds. If +EV then call, if - EV then fold.


If I understand you correctly, my thought process should be: Assign V1 range. Estimate my equity vs V1 range. Calculate EV (EV1). Repeat for V2 (EV2). EV1+EV2=EVT(otal). Compare EVT to pot odds. If +EV then call, if - EV then fold.

Not exactly. Remember that you've got two separate pots here. In one, you face two Vs, but one of them likely has a wide range (though probably not as wide as he's portraying). In the other you are HU, which improves your equity in that pot a lot, even though his range is likely stronger.

To illustrate the difference, I'll show an EV calc with the same ranges, but with/without separating the pots. I'll give V1 88+,AQs,AK, and V2 JJ+,AKs, which is my approx ranging for the short steaming straddler and the new guy attempting the limp/re-raise ISO.

If it were a straight 3-way pot, it's about $400 (assuming blinds and the extra $3 are raked away).
Your equity against both is 27.6%
So if you call, your share of the pot is $110.40. It costs you $99 to call, so your overall EV is +11.40.

If we run it as separate pots instead, you still have 27.6% equity in the main, which is about $225, so your share would be $62.10. You are paying $10 to get into the main (the difference between your initial raise and V1's shove), so your EV in the main is $52.10.

The side pot is about $175. Because there's only one V, even though he's the one with the stronger range, your equity goes way up. Your equity against V2 is 40%. So your share of the side is $70. You are putting $89 into it, so your EV in it is -$19

That means your overall EV is +33.10 in the split pot scenario, whereas it's only $11.40 if it were a single pot. Your EV almost triples.

Your thought process should be (though this is really a lot of math to do at the table), Assign both Vs ranges. Estimate EV in the main. Drop V1 and estimate EV in the side. Combine the two and compare to the price you're paying to get into both (because you can't get in to only one).

Of course! So.... my thought process should be:

Main pot. Assign V1 range. Estimate my equity vs V1 range. Calculate EV (EV1). Repeat for V2 (EV2). EV1 +EV2=EVM(ain pot). Side pot. Assign V2 range. Estimate my equity vs V2 range. Calculate EV (EVSide pot). EVM(ain pot) + EVS(ide pot) = EVT(otal). Compare EVT against pot odds offered by (main pot+side pot). If +EV then call, if -EV then fold?

Also just to clarify; V2 didn't limp/reraise ISO. He raised to 12 after V1 in HJ straddle and BB call. Does that change your range construction for him?

Neither approach is correct. In a 3way main pot your first approach is correct and will allow you to determine whether a call is +EV (+EV if equity > pot odds percentage, -EV if equity < pot odds percentage). But the first approach doesn’t calculate the value of that EV, and a simple comparison of two percentages can’t work for situations with a side pot.

The second approach is nonsense. You’d never want to add EVs against opponents like that. You might want to do this in a scenario where you are in two independent pots facing a different opponent in each, but this never happens in real poker.


You need to calculate equity value for main pot 1 and equity value for pot 2.

Eq for main pot 1 = (equity percentage 3ways in pot 1)*(size of pot 1 (incl your call))

Eq for main pot 2 = (equity percentage HU in pot 2) *(size of pot 2 (incl your call))

You can use the percentages found by PokerPlayingGamble. His ranges are reasonable.

Then total equity E = Eq1 + Eq2 ($)
Then EV of call = E - cost of call (your remaining stack).

My thought process is that I have AdKd with less than 100bb (and I've put in almost half) versus a tilted short-stacker and an unknown. I actually don't bother putting them on ranges unless V2 is an OMC, and I still call but am not nearly as happy about it.

Against an early position raiser and a villain who is titling, I would always try to get all my money in the pot with AKs and count my chips later. These calculations are fun after-the-hand problems but would have no bearing on how I would play my hand.

Yeah, it’s an easy all-in you don’t have to do range calculations. Even KQs and AQo are a call getting this price, though it’s probably a bit closer. Honestly, you can probably even call with KQo and KJs. I’m struggling to find a hand in your 3bet range that really wants to fold here. Calling with KQo/KJs is probably 0EV.

I’m giving V2 JJ+,AK and V1 top 20%

just running equities…. A5s and 76s are also a snap.

If you somehow show up here with T6s, it’s a marginal call (+$2 EV).

You can’t fold anything in your range.

You put in half your stack, you’re committed to the pot.

Basically this. We’ve put 65 in and V2 raised all in to 300, so 245 to us. We can never fold read less. We can barely ever fold really. Even if V2 flips over KK before we act, it’s slightly -EV (due to V1) but not something you’re ever going to figure out at the table.

There are better places to really try to break down ranges than this. Just call here and work on other spots

We only have 164. It’s 99 to us.

This is not true. You can’t estimate equity versus V1 and then equity versus V2 and then add them. Like if you’re 50% equity versus V1 and 50% equity versus V2 you don’t have 100% equity versus both players.

Also are you subtracting the price of the call when estimating the EV? Because then when you add EV1 to EV2 you’re subtracting the price of the call twice.

You need to estimate the equity 3ways using a poker equity calculator. Many free options available online. I use the propokertools website on my phone, and I have the pokercruncher app on my laptop computer.

You can use these equations:
Eq for main pot 1 = (equity percentage 3ways in pot 1)*(size of pot 1 (incl your call))
Eq for pot 2 = (equity percentage HU in pot 2) *(size of pot 2 (incl your call))

You can use the percentages found by PokerPlayingGamble.
3way equity percentage ~31%
HU equity percentage ~ 43%
Pot 1 size = 228 (-rake)
Pot 2 size = 188

Then total equity E = Eq1 + Eq2
Then EV of call = E - cost of call ($99).

Even if you only had 22% in the main and 27% equity in the side it’s still a call.

Which is why you can almost get away with calling a hand as weak as T7s in this spot.

My 3! range in this spot is: 99+, ATs+, A2-A5s, AQo+, KQs1

(I don't know how to quote from multiple replies) Thank you and all of the other replies. I was staying at my meathead buddy's house. He's a wake and bake everyday kind of guy. I'm definitely not. Now I know that the morning study routine is postponed when I visit.

My range for V2 is QQ+, which is tighter than the ranges in the replies. I'm comfortable with my range construction with V2. It's basically a 4!, from an unknown 1/2 player that just sat down and is already facing a 3!. At most I might want to include AK at 5 combos. As for V2's range, it seems that I need to widen considerably. 99+, ATs+, AQo, KQ.

I've seen someone 5bet then call all in the first hand at the table for >100bb w/ T6o. He was against AA (it was incredibly obvious to everyone at the table). He looked like an average Joe. So, you never know. Never folding AKs here w/ almost half my stack already in the middle.

Nice 3bet range.

I don’t think you can fold any of those hands to the jam. Even if you had T8s, you’re committed to call.

Your range for V2 of QQ+ is way too tight. The player who said “f it” is clearly looking to gamble. He put a huge amount of dead money in the pot. You think V2 is just gonna fold AK to this amazing opportunity? If he decides to continue with AK, he can’t just call your raise. He only has 100 left if he calls. He’s committed to the pot. He’s just gonna jam.