Hero($250- Tag image) is cutoff with QQ. UTG($200), Loose fishy, mid 20's raises to $20. I had not seen this size from him. Normal raise was $8 from him but mostly he limps alot. UTG +1($400) calls. UTG+1 is super fish, mid 50's, having a great time splashing around and is in 75% of the hands. Folds to Hero... What's the best raise size here? I'm thinking I want UTG to fold, I do not put him on AA/KK here very often and I want super fish UTG+1 to call. If UTG calls I know UTG+1 will call also.

Thoughts? Thoughts on my thoughts?

Thanks

Just make a normal sized 3 bet. $60 or so.

You really shouldn't care that much if UTG calls you, the SPR is going to be low enough that you should be ok with him making a bad call. You're describing him as fish, too, why do you need him out of the pot?

The optimal bet size is probably the most that will induce both players to call.

Tbh, I may not even raise and just over call, and reevaluate flop. A lot of the time they absurd raises are polarized to AA and KK. If there wasn't a cold caller before you, I would say min raise to $40 or $45 but since there was, that wont do change anything.

At this point, any further raise practically commits you (unless you plan on folding to UTG's shove which is a mistake IMO). I am seriously thinking about just shiping it preflop due to relatively low effective stacks. Would it be a bad decision ?

No, but I think we can raise to something normal and set up a standard 2/3x-1x PSB to ship on the flop.

There's some truth in this, lots of villains don't suddenly open raise without a hand.

I'm following the OP's read that V has a somewhat wide opening range here, in which case we really should try to set up a flop shove for stacks.

Are there any "back-out" conditions under which we are no longer committed on the flop? If yes, then I can't think of a good preflop re-raise size. UTG already raised to $20; would it make sense to reraise less than twice (i.e. making it $40 total ?) Even if we make it $40 and both call, pot will be $120 which pretty much makes us committed 100% of the time (does it not?).
Now, raising more than 2X is no different than shoving, so here I am convinced again that shoving is probably best to get money in good vs a lot of combined outs that both villains have against us. If UTG has AA or KK, well good for him.

OP... raise size is table dependent... not BI dependent. I have played 1/2 tables that play more like 2/5 or bigger if there is enough money on the table... and I have played on 2/5 tables that were worst than some 1/2 tables.

No issue with a 20-40 pre flop raise on a 1/2 table if it's playing big/deep enough.

There is no "issue", it's the question of how to correctly respond to this raise given effective stack sizes and reads. For this situation, it's not even remotely "big/deep" enough relative to the raise size, IMO

I didnt read the OP thoroughly, it's three bet sizing specific.

I think we're committed unless the flop is something like AKx.

I think if you're shoving you're trying to win the $40 now most of the time since our raise is going to fold most of their range that we're beating as opposed to trying to set up a pot of with $80 or $120 of their money on the flop (assuming 1 or 2 callers of a raise to $60) when they are going to be behind us the vast majority of the time on the flop. I think it's really a balance between these two options:

Shove = value of the 20 bb in the pot already * fold % + potential for bad calls - chance V has AA or KK

Raise to 60 = value of 20 bb in pot already * fold % + potential for more bad calls - chance villain has AA or KK OR binks the flop

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I'd rather check than min-raise, I think it just makes the stacks awkward by making it hard to get it all in on the flop.

I'd probably call and evaluate flop in position. Most players aren't open raising to $20 out of position without a big pair and this is KK/AA so much more often than AK/JJ. If you call and he ships it on a low flop you can be pretty sure you are beat.