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QQ v. Good Player QQ v. Good Player

03-17-2016 , 12:42 PM
1/2 club game. Game just started and is 6-handed. Effective stacks are $200.

V is a 30-ish regular in the game. V and H have a lot of history together. V plays a tight range pre, but is certainly positionally aware and will open up on the button. Will bet for value, usually has it when he's making a bet or calling, but will bluff at pots when he has little or no showdown value especially if someone shows weakness. Doesn't run big bluffs at all. Will call when his open-raise is 3-bet, and is capable of 4-betting at least as low as QQ. Views H as a good player, though also one who is capable of bluffing and may call down a bit light.

Folds to V who raises to $10 on the button, pretty standard sizing. My range for V here is Ax, pocket pairs, some suited connectors, Broadway cards. SB folds. H has QhQc in the big blind, 3-bets to $25. V calls.

My 3-bet sizing was a bit smaller than usual, but I know the pot will be a head's up and I'd like V to call with his whole range. Stack sizes are such that I'm creating a 3.5:1 SPR, so can pretty easily get stacks in by river if I want.

Flop is K32r. Action to hero.

My inclination here is actually to check, as this is pretty much a WA/WB spot. Only realistic draw that has more than 4 outs is 54s, which is a small part of his range. Don't think I'm getting V off a king.

Thoughts on pre flop and flop action?
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03-17-2016 , 01:10 PM
I'm c-betting here because V seems pretty straightforward. What would you bet if you had a AK or AA?

If you check, are you planning to call -- I hope so since V will bluff into weakness. I'd just hate to let V have control of the hand, because then we are completely lost unless we spike a Q.
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03-17-2016 , 01:31 PM
I don't see any reason to cbet - we shouldn't be bluffing with this hand imo. Nothing better folds and betting for value vs smaller pairs feels thin against this V.

I check here. If V checks we can be confident we're ahead and likely looking at a smaller pair or ace-high. If V bets I'm calling, checking turn and probably calling one more street depending on sizing. Given reads on V we should be able to see a showdown if we're ahead after calling 2 streets, if V barrels river we can fold.
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03-17-2016 , 01:35 PM
Quote:
Will bet for value, usually has it when he's making a bet or calling, but will bluff at pots when he has little or no showdown value especially if someone shows weakness.
From the sound of it, if we keep check/calling, V is barreling every street whether he has a K or not. Maybe he'll slow down on river, but would H ever check/call flop and turn with a K or better?
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03-17-2016 , 01:41 PM
Bet $20.

He will probably still call Mid Pairs, A4, A3, A5 etc
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03-17-2016 , 02:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Javanewt
From the sound of it, if we keep check/calling, V is barreling every street whether he has a K or not. Maybe he'll slow down on river, but would H ever check/call flop and turn with a K or better?
Just to be clear on my read/history, I don't think V is triple barreling with air. Not sure I've ever seen that. He'll stab or bluff at pots at times, and will do things such as bluffing a missed flush draw on the river, but if he bets into me three times on a dry board he almost certainly is doing so for value.

I would definitely check/call sometimes this flop with a K, and even with AK sometimes, given how dry it is and for deception. Would never check flop with AA, 22 or 33, but I'm pretty much never 3-betting 22 or 33 pre-flop either. Would often check flop w/ KK since I'd have the board very well locked down.
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03-17-2016 , 02:32 PM
Will V bet this flop w/o a K if you check? Will he bet turn w/o a K if you check? If he's that easy to play against (might bluff flop but will slow down w/o a hand), check/calling flop is fine. If turn goes ck/ck, you need to bet river or ck/call (depending on cards, of course).

Edit: If he's that straightforward, check/calling might be the only way to get anything more out of him if he can't beat QQ.
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03-17-2016 , 02:35 PM
3 bet larger pre.

Cbet flop. He will still call with jj down. But won't call a bet if an Ace spikes. Bet fold turn.
Masta--
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03-17-2016 , 02:37 PM
if you c/r the flop, what % of the time does he call? or will he only 4! his best hands and fold the rest?
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03-17-2016 , 02:40 PM
I'd prefer $30 pre for value and to try to fold out some of his Ax junk.

Cbetting $25 is probably best but I see a lot of merit in c/c as V will likely bet the majority of his wide range. We'd have to be prepared to c/c two streets though, and c/f if V finds a third barrel.

If we take this line, we have to c/c AK in this same spot (oop after we 3bet pre) on A72r/K53r in the future so that V knows we're not always weak when we c/c.

If we cbet $25, turn is a little tricky. We can either barrel small again, like $45-$50 and shut down OTR, or c/c and prepare for the possibility V bets again OTR after we showed weakness OTT.
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03-17-2016 , 02:42 PM
$30/$35 pre. Given description, check.
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03-17-2016 , 02:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Javanewt
Will V bet this flop w/o a K if you check? Will he bet turn w/o a K if you check? If he's that easy to play against (might bluff flop but will slow down w/o a hand), check/calling flop is fine. If turn goes ck/ck, you need to bet river or ck/call (depending on cards, of course).

Edit: If he's that straightforward, check/calling might be the only way to get anything more out of him if he can't beat QQ.
Not sure he'd bluff flop if I checked, though maybe. He'd probably check some kings (maybe not AK) though as well for pot control If it went ck/ck flop and I check turn, think he's often bluffing turn.
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03-17-2016 , 02:59 PM
This is where it gets complicated. If flop goes ck/ck and turn goes ck/bet and you call, what do you do on river? If he is actually a good player, he is betting his entire range on the river if you ck and only calling with better if you bet. So, you have to be willing to call turn and river in this situation. Ditto if you bet turn and he calls -- you have to be willing to bet/fold or ck/call river.

With this info, I'm back to my original assessment of just c-betting and going from there.
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03-17-2016 , 03:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Curious
if you c/r the flop, what % of the time does he call? or will he only 4! his best hands and fold the rest?
Honestly I don't know. I can probably count on one hand the number of times I've c/r the flop as the pre-flop raiser, and don't think it's ever happened against V. That move generally isn't in my arsenal. I'm generally c-betting, check/folding, or check/calling in that order.
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03-17-2016 , 03:35 PM
C-bet $20. Make it easy for him to call with 66-JJ, A2s-A5s part of his range. On that sizing he prob raises his AK (then you fold), rarely bluff-raises, and folds his air. If called, bet $25 on most turns. Very hard for him to have a K, make it so he'll let you know when he does.
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03-17-2016 , 03:37 PM
If we bet flop/check turn, we're pretty much signalling the weakness he will pounce on. He'll bet the turn, and then by the river there's a lot of money out there and he'll be tempted to put us to the test. I'm pretty happy to c/c 2 streets, or bet if one street is checked thru.

I agree with Java's point that if flop is checked, someone puts a bet in ott, then we are committing to ch/c river (on non-ace runouts). I'm just more comfortable with that than leading flop, which I don't think gives us any useful information. If this hand goes 3 streets of betting, I'm fine with letting it go. But I think we have SDV for a 2-streets plan, so I want to make that happen.
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03-17-2016 , 04:45 PM
Grunching ...

I think I prefer a C/C line otf. We probably fold worse by betting and may get a street of value by showing weakness. I also think a call shows strength, i.e. top of out 3-b PFR range, which may slow him down ott.

Sounds like V will not go crazy bluffing, so I'd also plan to check turn, and fold to a decent-sized bet. If checked through, I'd evaluate river.
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03-17-2016 , 04:54 PM
See, I don't think you can ck/call flop and ck/fold turn. Not against a good player who is not afraid to bet into weakness.
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03-17-2016 , 09:04 PM
I think a flop C/C shows strength and tells opponent we are willing to play this oop.

I'd expect him to check turn unless he indeed has KX/sets. If he bets the turn, I think we are behind.
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03-17-2016 , 10:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by samo
I think a flop C/C shows strength and tells opponent we are willing to play this oop.

I'd expect him to check turn unless he indeed has KX/sets. If he bets the turn, I think we are behind.
Then V is not the "good" player we expect.
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03-17-2016 , 10:51 PM
OP is confident villain won't triple barrel air but will stab at perceived weakness. We have the nut bluff catcher and are WA/WB.

Put all this together, this is the perfect spot to x/c the flop, induce bluffs/stabs when we are ahead and get away from the hand when we are behind. If villain shows no interest in the pot, he presumably has something not great that wants a showdown and we can some value OTT and/or OTR.
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03-18-2016 , 09:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Javanewt
Then V is not the "good" player we expect.
Perhaps I'm leveling based on the op.

There is history between H and V, so my thought process is the V knows we know he is "good". So if we are willing to C/C flop and play oop, V red light should switch on.

If turn is checked through, I might even lean to C/C river rather than leading.
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03-18-2016 , 10:30 AM
My god c/c and c/f river is an awful line. Just bet $20 on the flop and go from there. He is calling with much worse and we still have the best hand a lot of the time.
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03-18-2016 , 02:55 PM
So I check flop and it checks through. Turn is a T completing the rainbow. My plan is now check turn and call a reasonable bet on both turn and river unless an A comes on the river, in which case I may check fold, or a Q comes, in which case I may bet or x/r. Seem reasonable? By checking turn I'm trying to continue my story of missing the flop and that I'm giving up. If he checks turn I bet river for value.
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03-18-2016 , 02:56 PM
Sounds like a good plan.
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