It's not illegal to slow down and see what develops OTT. Someone who literally has no plan with an overpair except barrelling away in 4 way pots is going to give a patient nit (like me) their stack time and time again.

If it checks around, you can bet-fold a lot of rivers. If BTN bets and SB calls and UTG raises, we can trivially fold. If something else happens we can play poker. I don't see the problem here.

Also, flatting flop with sets is not a problem here. I would flat all sets as BTN if we're 100bb effective.

Pro could easily have no raising range in this spot OTF.

Button could have JJ or A9s and be trying to value bet SB and bluff you at the same time. Seems a bit fancy tho. I suppose it's possible if he picked up on your preflop misstep. Since he'd often check back the river with these hands and we should lose to the rest of this range, appears to be a x/f.

Pretty amusing if he shows up with A5s, A3s, 87s or AK here.

I am struggling to put button on any sort of range. I would think he's incredibly likely to raise the turn if his hand is better than ours, but I don't see what hands call flop call turn and then bet river when checked to. The only real possibility I can think of is an incredibly thin value bet with two pair or a hand like, I dunno, 46hh? That's literally it.


I agree with one or two others that the biggest mistake in the hand is on the turn. By that time I'm desperate to get to showdown cheaply if at all possible, and if it isn't particularly possible, I'm inclined to give the hand away.

So does this hand have a conclusion or is it still ongoing?

I talked myself into a call, which after the fact seems really bad. Button had AhJh. Im still trying to figure out why he called the flop bet. Seems really bad to me.

Wow. Ambitious float 4 handed.

I agree with everyone check on the turn was appropriate. three callers on that flop and then the turn card most likely hit someone. I agree AJhh surprises me some but if it had been something like a straight and backdoor flush draw on the flop it is really no different. Either way checking the turn would have been the prudent play.

I would say the one situation Im most unsure about in poker is playing big multiway raised pots like this one. Not raised pots that get 3-5 callers, but raised pots that get multiple callers preflop AND multiple callers on the flop.

So my turn bet could def be wrong in general based on hand ranges, but in this specific hand I think we have to say it was correct based on what he actually had. It seems to me like checking the turn is just too weak. Why give 3 guys a free card when I should be ahead most of the time?

I get that the hand feels gross when 4 players go to the turn and checking gives a free card to a zilion outs. But I think WereBeer really nailed the analysis itt and I'd suggest a reread of his posts.

I'm sure if he knew you had QQ he would have folded on the flop, but your bet after the PFR checks is going to be incredibly wide. You could be betting as wide as 44+ as well as some bluffs like JTs with BDFD, QJs with BDFD etc.

Button likely planned on taking it away on a later street either on scare cards or actual cards that improve his hand. Your range is fairly weak and will have a hard time reaching showdown.

Maybe so but that seems pretty ambitious in a pot that still has people in it.

Think about the logic you used to justify your turn bet,

"but in this specific hand I think we have to say it was correct based on what he actually had"

He probably used really similar logic to justify his flop call, something like,

"My call may have been a little loose, but I had the opportunity to win a big pot, and I think we have to say it was correct based on what he actually had"

Losing 100bb with one pair when spr was super high going to the flop and we never improved is just a nightmare.

After you get called in 3 spots otf you have to change your expectations for the hand. You have to know you have under 50% equity, could be way, way behind and realize there are very, very few good turns for you (and some of the "good" turns could get you stacked).

Theres no getting around that btns flop call is spew, but you paying him off otr legitimizes it to an extent.

fwiw once the SB overcalls flop, I don't think it's wrong to have a turn betting frequency (even on this card), but it has to be at a far more polished sizing. AP turn and river qualify as spew at an avg 5T game.

Because you really really want to get to showdown cheaply and the most likely way to accomplish that is by checking.

What would you bet on the turn?

$185 on the turn if your image was strong? In retrospect, would be a very interesting thread if you stopped at your turn action and gave more detailed reads and all stack sizes. Your equity likely <50% against their ranges when it's your action on the turn. But how much of their equity is in draws? Doesn't help that the parts of the UTG and BTN ranges that you're ahead of, block each other.

(not criticizing your thread, just I agree the turn is a very interesting spot)

I like our chances of getting to sd and getting there well more by betting turn with the bottom of what should actually be a very strong perceived range (having flatted UTG1/bet 953r). A solid TAG btn will have a lot of folds on this turn and fortunately this SB will still have a lot of calls. It isn't necessarily a bet for value or protection per se, but rather a better option (likely +EV w our range) than ck-overcalling or ck-folding turn.

Keep in mind that as much as we'd like this to ck through ott and then again otr, the likelihood of that happening 4 handed is quite dim and the likelihood that the strongest 1p hand wins the pot this way is also poor.

You needn't bet 300 to accomplish this, 220-240 (I would've bet no more than half pot otf) is what I'd be using for sets and straights and would have bet turn for that size here as well.