hero has little over 700 and has tag image and is in hj
v1 is utg seems to be loose pre but tighter post flop, reasonably aggressive.
has around 1200
v2 is loose passive on btn has around 500.

utg opens to 15 (std open for him as opposed to 20-25 normally seen in the game)
folds to hero in hj with QQ raises to 40
(meant to raise to 45 actually but didn't verbalise and was short one chip)
v2 in btn calls
blinds fold
v1 in utg raises to 95. (range him as JJ+,AK maybe some TT,AQs)
hero calls (55 into 182 getting 3:1. we might have odds to set mine plus we aren't always up against AA/KK. thought of a 5 bet but raising to say 275 leaves us with 2.5:1 if he shoves and we don't feel nice folding)
v2 calls. (v2 is probably behind us but now makes us wary of medium cards has he often as a med pair hoping to flop a set here. now we wish we 5bet here)

flop (292)
234ss
v1 bets 165
hero
(calling commits us to this flop. do we shove? )

4bet from UTG your range is off.

Before the 4bet your range is fine, after it should be KK+, minimal chance of QQ and AKs.

If we call we are set mining and need to fold OTF to big action.

In most cases just fold PF, tough as it is.

I would probably click it back pre and gain most of your info there.
Folding to another bet.

Your basically lost right now in the hand .

If your scared to loose all your $ just fold and play different next time.

what if we click back to 190 and then fishy v2 calls now v1 can call wide getting 5:1. and we are in the same spot.

Highly unlikely but if that does happen it's set or fold

U get all the info u want from his profile and his position and his preflop 4bet and his 4bey sizing... U don't need to burn another 30bb for more information

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Not really. Opening utg is getting more and more common. So someone who thinks they can rep big hands here can easily 4b the min to look super strong. He's a bit loose and agro pre.
IMO his range is 1010+. AJs +

4bet is not the min. Either way loose and aggro doesn't equal a 4b with TT-JJ, AJ-AQ. It just doesn't. Maybe to open, but not to 4bet.

Your right sometimes.
I guess it is very player dependent.
Most of the players I'm playing with regularly fall into my category

Fold.

Fold here, v1 is reppin a big hand and with v2 left to act behind I think it's a fold

NOTE: Even though technically villain 3-bet us, the reality is that it should be conceptually thought of as a 4-bet since the open was a raise and we raised the open....

The only reason we should ever 4-bet here or think we are good post flop is if we have been involved in a leveling war with this villain. Another possibility is that we have been 3-betting the crap out of everyone all day long, like once an orbit or once every other orbit...

Barring that, we should call pre realizing that we are set mining our QQ and folding post flop if we whiff.

Or put another way, 3-bets in this spot that aren't KK+ are so freaking rare at this level that I honestly have no problem ever folding JJ/QQ to the bigger ones or calling if I have the odds to set mine.

Now, the cool thing when we are setmining JJ/QQ to these kind of 3-bets (i.e. 3-bets that are more like a 4-bet) is that we can drop our implied odds requirement. The standard for setmining has increased over the years from needing 11:1 odds (back in the good ol days) to now needing 15:1 odds (sometimes people want 20:1 odds )

well, in the case of 3-bet pots like this, you can actually lower your required odds back to 11:1 because we are 95% confident V has KK+ so that if we do hit we get paid off like always because players at this level are never folding KK+ in these spots post flop

So in this case, we are deep enough to just set mine our QQ.

Now the hard part comes when its a lowball flop. The tendency to want to call on these boards can be over powering. But we need to be disciplined and stick with our preflop plan.

So call pre (don't 4-bet) and then fold whiffed flops

now this makes a lot of sense. though I'm sure all the pros we idolize would have jammed all in here.

No, they wouldn't. I know it appears that pros are jam happy, but you have to understand the context. There is a huge difference between playing 25/50nl 400bb+ deep vs Level 3 and Level 4 villains vs playing 1/2nl and 2/5nl 100bb deep vs level 1 and level 2 villains.

If v1 is a good aggressive player he could realise what a nice spot this is to 4b/f 1010-qq aj-ak type hands given how strong his range looks and v2 is folding to further action almost always.
I think folding is too weak, we call to setmine and occasionally take down the pot if v1 has bluffs in his range and gives up post. As played sigh fold flop.

is this 2/5 or 1/2?

if its 2/5, i got no issue going broke with QQ pre for 140bb. its prob close though, i prob draw the line at 150-155bb. anything 130bb or less against someone i deem competent is prob a get in.

if its 1/2 im set mining

its 2/5. thing is (and this is anecdotal given that its live but over pairs and tptk for 125+ bbs are good not more than 20-25% of the time. I ended up calling to set mine.

I say fold, because u still have v2 to act behind you and v1 rarely c bets into 2 people in a 4 bet pot with the effective stacks you guys are playing with out having AA/KK. I think he checks Ace king, like you said he was loose pre flop but tight post flop.

this is pretty spewy.

In order to get stacks in with QQ 140bb deep, you are talking about a 5-bet shove or even 6-bet shove.

4-bets at the 2/5nl level are almost exclusively QQ+/AK with 80% of the weight being KK/AA and I can't recall the last time I saw a 5-bet shove get called in a scenario that wasn't AA vs KK.

So stacking off 2/5nl for 140bb with QQ is pretty spewy and just incorrect unless you are involved in a leveling war vs an ego maniac or are up against a super ******ed aggro that is smoking a vial of crack and mainlining heroin during the hand.

Otherwise, against the typical 2/5nl players, you are donating money to his roll.

i have to disagree here, for this specific scenario.

im not gonna go on a limb and say villian isnt weighted towards QQ+/AK, but im pretty suspicious of his 4b sizing. i expect 19bb to be a sizing used by an online player with effective stacks being 100-130bb deep, not a "splashy" live player at 2-5 live.

if said villian is just a live player, i do not think he goes this small with KK+ as i am sure we can both agree, most live players are huge vags who have no clue how to play postflop and are scared of everything. combine this with the fact there is a cold caller of our 3b on the button who likely is going to set mine, i REALLY dont think KK+ just invites our 3b range + a set mining range otb into the pot for the minimum.

thus if he is one level ahead of me and min 4 betting to induce, he gets me. but in this spot i am 5b to 40bb and calling it off.

yep, i acknowledge this isnt some co vs btn or co vs bb 3b/4b war, which again doesnt happen very often at LLSNL. but saying villian never gets in AK preflop a % of the time isnt entirely true either.

im not gonna go on some rant like some of the idiots in this forum and argue about 5 betting and seeing KK vs AA cause that stuff really doesnt matter. circle jerking about bad beats is the stuff breakeven players discuss.

*edit to add*

also this thread title is misleading.

hero isnt oop, hero isnt deep. the only thing interesting about this hand is main villian min 4 bet us and there is a cold caller on the button.

fixed headline!
140bb isn't deep deep i agree.

more info on v:
v is a 30 something Asian guy. hasnt made typical "Asian" moves over past 3 hours or so that we have been. dressed in khakis and a dress shirt (friday night at the borgata in Atlantic city. so v likely coming straight from work). not sure if I'd classify him as an internet player except for the 3bb open (live generally is 4-5bb open)

For the sake of argument, you can make a case for 5-betting here to 40bb.

But if V then ships it over the top of your 5-bet and you call it off for 140bb with QQ that is just spewy man.

There are two logical trains of thought that would encapsulate Villain making a min-bet 4-bet, your 5-betting, and then V shipping it over the top of you.

Logical train #1). Villain has AA/KK and makes either a mistake raising so small or is doing the min-ish raise because he wants action. When you 5-bet him, he gets a raging boner and ships it.

Logical train #2). Villain is so sophisticated that he is min-raising OOP with a lesser hand so he can outplay everyone post flop???? When you 5-bet him, this same sophisticated villain is somehow not going to read your particular 5-bet as AA/KK and instead is reading you for a sophisticated player that is reading him for a sophisticated player so you are now both playing level 3 poker so villain then has to ascend to level 4 poker to win the hand and now villain realizes that he can 6-bet shove to fold you off of a weaker hand because now villain soul reads that your particular 5-bet is different from the 99% other LLSNL 5-bets as being a non AA/KK 5-bet thus villain now realizes he can shove over the top of you. So now you have to ascend to level 5 poker to realize what villain realized about your realizations about him so that you know that your QQ is now good in a 6-bet shove situation as differs from the 99.999% other situations in LLSNL....

Kinda see the problem with train two??? It has too many variables that have very little supporting evidence for us calling a 6-bet ship with QQ.

I agree you can make an argument for raising villain, but you cannot make a strong argument for then calling if he ships it over the top of you. If you do, you are just leveling yourself.

Or put another way. This spot does not happen at a high enough frequency for a QQ to be good if V 6-bet ships it against us for 140bb. Unless we have witnessed V 3-bet or 4-bet shoving light as a bluff preflop... otherwise, its just spew to call a 6-bet shove in this game for 140bb.