im half asian and the biggest nit ever

thanks for all the replies guys, good stuff!

my thought process was the same as the majority here and I decided I had too little info on him, too many assumptions, too much guessing. I could go either way on what his sizing and weak physical tells meant. my instinct about the situation told me he was tired of me running the table over and he was picking this spot to pull off a sick bluff, my logic said I rarely see cold 4 bet bluffs, i feel like i could be leveling myself, if i lose 200bb in this spot vs KK or AA im going to be pretty upset with myself in hindsight, theres better spots. so i fold.

villain shows T7o

sick . nh

w0w sick bluff, complete bluff. O.o

I think the generalisation about young asians is pretty strong and generally correct, I will often find thin value against opponents who I know will try stuff like this.
I am a very nitty young Asian (early 20s) and love the generalisation because it allows me to get called down a lot more for my value hands (the regulars have even commented my range being close to OMC/Nut peddler....)

So much for everybody saying thing that the excessively large cold 4bet from a young Asian being KK/AA 95%+ of the time.

I am not saying that this is an easy spot to shove, but shoving is definitely the best option when presented with all the relevant info (including the young Asian versus young Asian dynamic)

way to be result orientated

You guys have got to be kidding. I pointed out some very Important info regarding the young Asian versus young Asian dynamic and regarding the suspiciously large 4bet sizing...and all you guys can say is that I am result-oriented?

Thanks for reminding me about all the high-quality postings on 2plus2. Let me retract all my strat postings from now on because I am obviously not good enough to post strat compared to all the heavyweights in this forum. I will only resume posting in the strat forums here after I have finally figured how to beat live 2/5 NL. Forgive me for contaminating your high-quality strat threads with my rookie analysis.

seriously, if you're going to be lol passive aggressive, at least check up thread first to make sure what you're implying is correct.

ATsai was bang on earlier in the thread

You may very well be correct but I can honestly say that I have not actually witnessed a 4 bet bluff in live low stakes NL. I think my first reaction was to shove but the more details I kept realizing the more I leaned towards folding. Think long think wrong I guess. We only surrendered 13 bb so I suppose we learn our lesson and move on in this spot. I don't think OP should be beating himself up by any means.

Good to see we're still attracting the young and immature audience.

I am going to give you a pass on your sniping, but don't expect me to take people's snarky dumb comments lying down.

Just my observation that 2plus2 being worthless for real strat discussion because the quality posters have given up on posting strat when faced with trolls and rude wannabee wizards.

There is a reason why all the formerly best posters simply chat among themselves in private chat groups instead of bothering to post on 2plus2.

That is a real shame for those who are here to take critism and learn. Then again I see trolls in every other thread so it must get bothersome. You're a cash game grinder, I wouldn't let the comments of the few upset you.

Your position is a reasonable position, and I do agree that OP shouldn't be beating himself up. As I said myself, this is not a fist pump easy shove spot. This is a marginal spot.

Thanks for being able to discuss opposing viewpoints in a reasonable way. I definitely agree with you that light 4bets rarely come up at live 2/5 NL even though the info in this HH seemed to indicate that this might be a special case where a light 4bet was possible.

lol@ labelling me a troll for thinking u are being result orientated,
i simply think there was no way of op knowing villian had a cold 4 bet bluffing range as wide as T7o given all the info he provided

I must admit that if I was to review all the times I've crammed it in at 2/5 and 5/5 with QQ facing 3 and 4 bets, I believe I will have been wrong more than I've been right but in this case, the fact that

- hero has 3 bet 4 times in 60-120 minutes
- hero is on the button in a superficially squeezy situation
- hero's read that V is good enough to have noticed both the above points
- the 4 bet is way too big for AA - maybe he'd size KK this big, but only if he was bad

all lead us to believe that Villain's range is wider than KK and AA and so H has a good case to continue. Of course, we didn't know that V was capable of doing this as a complete bluff, but we don't need to know that to believe it's not a fold

big 4 bet could simply mean villian is uncomfortable in 200bb deep 4 bet pots oop, and wants to put hero in a push/fold position.

as I have indicated in my original post shoving might be +EV, but I advocated for avoiding the variance in this spot.

i said TSAI was being result orientated because he was using the fact the villian showed up with t7o to justify the whole young asian vs young asian bs. also, suppose villian and shown OP AA, do u think OP asks this question on the forum? he probably just pats himself on the back and forgets about it. Op asks this question on 2p2 because he wants to know our opinions on the hand given all the info hero had at the time, what villian actually showed up with is irrelavant. Don't use the result of a hand to justify ur thought process.

Thanks for the pass....

Your comment did seem results oriented because there was no real reason for it. You were using the results as confirmation of your position which generally isn't a good idea.

As or the chat regs, they likely just tire of answering the same basic things over and over. I do. Nobody owes anybody anything.

but there's no indication that OP is underrolled. why would you recommend he pass up a +ev situation?

I wasn't referring to the chat thread regs. Many of the best posters who used to post in this forum refuse to post here anymore, but they can still be found discussing lots of strategy on Skype chat groups and/or WhatsApp chat groups with other skilled poker players.

It is just natural for people to stop posting quality advice at 2plus2 when the 2plus2 forums have fallen so far from their former glory.

I think you're romanticized it a bit.

It's also just the natural evolution of the site for people to come and go. I wouldn't expect the best to stick around anyway. Bigger and better things. But this is all off topic. I think generally speaking this situation is a loser in the long run despite the individual results.

Spike,

You are ignoring 4 things:

1. Hero had a very aggro image because he had been 3 betting a lot in last 1-2 hours. And he looks like a young Asian.

2. Villain is a young Asian. This demographic has a significantly higher 4bet bluffing frequency and light 4bet value range...especially against other young Asians.

3. Villain's 4bet sizing is ridiculously large (more than 4x). If he really had KK/AA, would he really want to overbet so large?

4. 5 bet shoving QQ against AK will sometimes take down the pot because Villain might lay down AK incorrectly. This FOLD EQUITY versus AK increases the EV of shoving QQ.

Maybe you want to delude yourself into thinking that light 4bets never occur at live 2/5 NL in certain special circumstances because you haven't seen it in your small sample size in your local nitty Midwest games, but you are wrong here.

Did the dealer rabbit the hand? I wonder what it would have been!

And you're ignoring a few things as well.

1. Sample size. He's only been at the table for an hour or two. Is that enough to really tell much of anything about anyone's 4 betting range?

2. Ya he's an Asian, but he's been a snug quiet Asian. You take your skin color, and I'll take his demonstrated tendencies.

3. Tight UTG raiser. This makes it far less likely that he's bluffing.

I didn't say he couldn't be bluffing. I said it's very unlikely he's bluffing.


Your tone in general is usually condescending and arrogant. I usually laugh at condescending arrogant people. I think I'll just laugh at you until you learn to behave better.

nh, wp

"See!! I told you so!" after someone post results is about as immature / unprofessional as it gets.

First thing first, we don't need Villain to be 4bet bluffing more than 10% for shoving QQ to be profitable. Villain could be 4beting only a value range of AK/JJ+ with ZERO bluffs, and our 5bet shove with QQ would be profitable. We are only scared of KK+, and there is good evidence for us to suspect Villains range is wider than that.

As far as your personal attacks, it is comical that you just keep leveling personal attacks on me instead of just debating the logic of the arguments. I guess that is just standard operating procedure for you though when you can't be bothered to debate the logic.

+1

there is no way you will be ahead if you make this same play 99 more times.

what dynamic? Just because they are asains doesn't mean there is a dynamic.

why would he 3bet much smaller that deep, wouldn't it invite everyone to call? How happy would he be to be in a 4way pot deep with aces?

this is some very basic strat advice (folding QQ to a random cold 4bet in llsln because the majority of the time it is aces and kings. Nothing too advanced about that). The good players in the chat thread are mostly known by their villains. So why would they post their advanced stuff here? I also do that in private skype groups as well. But his forum is basically a beginners forum and folding QQ to a big cold 4bet 200bb's deep in live poker without knowing he could be bluffing is the most basic concept. Suggesting there is an asian dynamic without hh's and evidence is not good enough for me to jam for 200bb's because it's only on a guess.

There is certainly nothing wrong with jamming if you want to play a high varience style. There are more Ak combos than aces and kings, but if it was me, I would go with the fact that a 4bet in 2/5 from a random player has us crushed, plus the fact that there is hardly ever a cold 4bet bluff period.