1/3 NL

HJ...He has limped in a lot but also raises a decent amount. The hands I have seen him raise with have been strong like big Aces or big pairs and some suited broadway. I suspect he has more than that in his range given his frequency but I haven't seen anything crazy. Only a two hour sample size.

Button...Seems pretty solid. He has shown down some good hands. He has made some good v bets on the river.

Hj has 250, Button has 400, and I have 600

HJ opens to 15, the button calls, I call in the SB with QdJd and the BB folds.

(45 pot)..Js4h6h..I check, the HJ bets 30, the button fairly quickly calls and I call.

(135 pot)...Jc4h6hAs...It gets checked around.

(135 pot)...Jc4h6hAsAd...Should I bet? Maybe throw out a smallish bet? Or check and see what happens? My concern is if I check someone may throw out a big size bet and put me on the spot. The HJ could have KK's or QQ's and have an easy v bet I think but might just call a small bet. Or should I be thinking about check folding to a bet from HJ?

Now that I look at it I'm wondering what hands that I beat that will call? It's pretty thin and if anyone has an Ace it should be me. KK's and QQ's call a small bet right? Huh! maybe I should turn my hand into a bluff?

3bet pre


River is extremely obvious check

River is a check-decide. You can essentially never have trips here, while the HJ can very easily have it. If he’s paying any attention at all, he’ll know your River donk means exactly what it looks like it means (a Jack, that you’re betting to “see where you’re at”) and that he can bluff you off it by raising.

Just check.

But, contra the guy above me, you were right to not 3-bet preflop. There aren’t many hands you should call raises from in the SB, but QJs is one of them.

I could have a nut flush draw which would give me trips after the turn checked. Should I be bluffing the nut draw 3 ways? Would/should the HJ ever be checking an Ace on the turn? Should he be C betting hands like AK or AQ on this flop?

Generally speaking, if this is time rake, you should have a squeezing and calling range in this spot with QJs. Considering V has a limping range, I'd move this more to calling that 3betting and maybe even a pure call.

Generally speaking, if this is a pot rake, you should be squeezing almost pure and only calling at a low frequency. Considering V has a limping range, I'd move this into a fold category.




As played, c/c mostly. The pot is only $135. So we don't really need to block bet. We can bluff catch for almost a whole pot bet. V would need to overbet before we can fold here.

We really only get value from TT, 99, 88 hands. And occasionally a stubborn KQ. So, not much point to betting here.

Just realized it's still 3 handed.

I'll check and evaluate. BTN can easily have an A here.

I personally squeeze preflop, but calling not terrible.

Is check-folding the flop bad here? The call in the middle is concerning.

Check-fold river seems prudent

Check/fold river seems right. Without specific reads, I don’t imagine missed draws are going to try to fold out two other players multi-way, and the vast majority of hands betting for value are beating you.

Does this change your advice of check/call the river now that HJ is betting into two players?

I agree about missed draws. I would think the HJ would bet again on the turn if he had a flush draw. The Ace on the turn shouldn't slow him down should it? The button should be folding on the flop with just Ace high with a player to his left still to act right? I shouldn't be over calling with just an ace. On the river if I check, the button would have had a chance to bet an ace and I twice didn't bet when the Ace or two Aces appeared. It seems a value bet with KK's or QQ's or KJ would be easy for HJ.

I chose not to squeeze because I thought that the HJ was not the type to raise fold even for a big bet. I should have included that in my reads.

I thought the call was concerning as well. I didn't have a good read on the HJ's C-bet frequency at the time. I suppose a read that he often checks 3 way UIP or if he bet bigger on the flop would more sway this to a fold. Should the button be raising this flop with AJ or KJ? Should the presence of the flush draw make us more likely or less likely to want to call?

What is the reasoning for choosing a squeeze over a call in a pot rake? How do you determine what frequency you just call?

I would check the river, if someone throws out a big bet I would just fold.

I wouldn't 3bet pre here since the original raiser has been seen so far only opening big pocket pairs, big aces and suited broadways, and he's only been there for 2 hours so it's not nearly enough to think he's that wide and folds to 3bets, otherwise we're heads up or 3 ways OOP with queen high, and with another player in the hand we would have to raise to like 80, the HJ only has $250, if he's continuing, he's all in. Also, if he does 4bets us, and we have to fold, we lost the value of our hand that could have cracked his aces if we flatted. It's perfectly fine to flat QJs from the BB in 1/3 with at least 3 players.

I just nitty fold preflop. But I'm a huge position nit and in borderline cases it is the deciding factor for me.

I'm fine with the flop check and I might just make a nitty fold on the flop too. Dude hasn't been doing anything crazy and he's still continuing for a solid bet multiway and solid Button has called again.

I'm fine with the turn check (to fold).

I think our hand is too good to turn into a bluff and too weak to bet for value. So I probably check/fold to a HJ bet and perhaps consider calling a Button bet. Mostly just checking and hope I showdown the winner, and mostly folding to a bet.

GcluelessNLnoobG

3bet pre to $75.

To answer your question, the reason you want to 3bet and 4bet more when the pot is raked and the game isn't just pay for time is that you pay no rake when you rake the pot down pre. You may think you want to win a big pot and don't to just take it down pre to win just $33, but the reality is the EV of you calling is probably going be less than 1 bb in an unraked game and likely negative in a raked game. It is great to win $33 pre if they fold, and when you get 4bet, you probably were in terrible shape anyways and it's okay to let it go. I would 3bet whether or not there was pot rake.


I would check river since you are 3 ways. I would not turn your hand into a bluff. You want to bluff a lot less 3 ways, and you are targeting a narrow range from HJ, of KK, QQ, and those hands will tend to get very sticky since the second A is out. You still beat JT, TT-77 that might have bet for thin value and protection on flop, non-A high flush draws, 6x, random flop cbets, and a fair amount of button's range as well. This might be the kind of hand you would want to throw out a 1/3ish pot bet on the river if it were heads up, but it's top thin 3 ways imo. Still losing to KJ even.

I've been playing in a time game for so long that I didn't realize they don't take out rake if the pot is taken down pre. Come to think of it, that's why I used to chop at 8/16 but not in my time game 20/40.

What do you do pre flop if the HJ seems to not fold pre flop even to big raises?

That's a pretty extreme statement. Is he going to call you off with KJo if you 3bet to $75? Honestly probably still 3bet and at least hope to get it heads-up. You can still take down a lot of pots with cbets and you can do some nice things with frontdoors/backdoors. Never folding preflop= lots of trash on a lot of flops, and if he is calling a lot of flops, thay means a lot of trash on later streets.

This is one of the main reasons I employ a limp/reraise strategy preflop; in loose raisesy games, taking down decent pots preflop but without the huge $9+$2 rake+drop is really beneficial.

So obviously I'd be super cool taking down the pot preflop with a 3bet. The problem is that if he continues that we've setup a commitment spot postflop, and I think our hand is too weak to do that. I mean, if we 3bet to $60 (reasonable given the dead money and being OOP), that will create a $135 pot with just $190 left, where we often just punt stacks into dominating hands.

GimoG

Yeah, but the rake is really the reason we shouldn't limp in the first place in case no one reraises and now you are dealing with a premium hand in a small pot, more multiway, large SPR, and paying big rake.

And there are so many other things thay can happen when you 3bet QJs. We aren't just always stacking off with bluff catchers when we hit. We often can bluff and win, we can win with marginal made hands, and occasionallywe hit a monster. Yeah, we will lose a fair amount of the time too. So it will drive up variance but it will also drive up profits.

It sounds to me like you like playing a very low variance game where you mainly live to set up low SPR spots where you can mainly stack off with value and hope to get paid off. I'm sure you probably have a lot less big losing days, but this is for sure not the most profitable way to poker. If it is more fun for you, then by all means, that is great. But some people like myself also enjoy taking risks, bluffing, putting people in tough spots, and enjoy the challenge and thrill of being in tough spots as well. Ultimately we should pick the style that makes us the happiest. Just food for thought.

I think just fold pre since villain only raising strength + his stacksize & dead money otb makes it awkward to 3b an effective amount

For instance 3b to $60 sucks, $75 is getting close to calloff territory if HJ ever shoves AK, TT…

Still not enough equity to call QJs though, so I still think we can 3bet fold. Would need 33.8% to call a jam, I guess more considering the rake? We seem to have about 32% for TT+ and AK.

Flatting on SB is just so bad.

Definitely don't want to turn this into a limp/reraise debate, but the point was more about the benefits of taking down pots preflop with a 3bet thanks to no rake being raked. I just think our hand is too weak to do that here (and so due to that and being OOP, I fold), imo.

Gclueless3bettingnoobG