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Q4s iso in tight live 2/5 game

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08-15-2016 , 11:12 PM

Senor_Enos

newbie

Join Date: May 2016 Posts: 36

Tight 2/5 game, no other regs in game or anyone who would know I play FT. I have been ISOing pretty wide but have yet to show down any of these hands.

Preflop: UTG limps, Hero r25 MP1 Q4cc, sb c (1.1k eff, middle aged indian dude, seems to be pretty sticky post), bb c (400 eff), and limp calls (600 eff)

Flop(100) A

checks to hero who b65, sb calls

Turn(230) A

sb donks 65, hero calls

River(360) 2

sb b90, hero r225

**Feel confident I have the best hand the entire way. Decided to flat turn so I didn't blow him off of his hand. If he was bluffing, had an ace, or a smaller flush he'd bet river and I could put in a raise. Thoughts?

Last edited by Senor_Enos; 08-15-2016 at 11:18 PM.

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08-15-2016 , 11:55 PM

suited fours

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Nov 2012 Posts: 4,143

How about 400 otr? Is he really gonna lay down trips?

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08-15-2016 , 11:59 PM

Senor_Enos

newbie

Join Date: May 2016 Posts: 36

Quote:

Originally Posted by suited fours

How about 400 otr? Is he really gonna lay down trips?

I think 400 would just look huge to him. Tbh, he might get away from trips if I size that large. Maybe not though. Sizing is something I'm trying to get better at, just trying to find that breaking point. Super tough to do, well for me anyways.

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08-16-2016 , 12:01 AM

Senor_Enos

newbie

Join Date: May 2016 Posts: 36

I'm hindsight, I think the best line would be to pretty much click back turn then put a decent sized river bet in...

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08-16-2016 , 08:15 AM

br3nt00

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 3,664

It's easier to say raise turn now that I see his river bet sizing is so small. Definitely raise river I like the sizing. Turn raise not considering river action I think I would still advocate a small one like 225$ then bet river 175$

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08-16-2016 , 09:31 AM

MikeStarr

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jan 2016 Posts: 7,962

Are you calling if he shoves?

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08-16-2016 , 09:40 AM

iraisetoomuch

banned

Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 37,871

Pre flop seems like a raging spew.
Can't imagine that we can make money like this OOP to most of the table with Q4s..

But lol easy game when we bink the nuts.
Turn is a must raise when he sizes like that. That donk is just beging for a cheap price to see a river.

River sizing is mostly fine as % but if the pot was bigger going into the river, I'd want to raise more.

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08-16-2016 , 09:57 AM

suited fours

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Nov 2012 Posts: 4,143

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeStarr

Are you calling if he shoves?

I wouldn't. Shoves should be grossly weighted to boats.

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08-16-2016 , 09:59 AM

MikeStarr

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jan 2016 Posts: 7,962

Quote:

Originally Posted by suited fours

I wouldn't. Shoves should be grossly weighted to boats.

I agree, and it why I like the river raise to $225 more than $400.

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08-16-2016 , 10:14 AM

#10

suited fours

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Nov 2012 Posts: 4,143

I wouldn't advocate trying to bluff this villain off of trips. $400 is way short of PSR, offers him $310 to win $850, or $310 to win $270 if he thinks we're trying to move him off of a chop. Villains block/sigh/call often, so I'd try $400.

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08-16-2016 , 10:19 AM

#11

Senor_Enos

newbie

Join Date: May 2016 Posts: 36

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeStarr

Are you calling if he shoves?

No, was raise/folding

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08-16-2016 , 10:27 AM

#12

Dream Crusher

banned

Join Date: Mar 2016 Posts: 18,786

I prefer a slightly larger raise on the river...closer to $300.

(unless u are saying u raised $225 on top in which case i like it but I don't think that is what your post means).

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08-16-2016 , 10:28 AM

#13

Senor_Enos

newbie

Join Date: May 2016 Posts: 36

Yeah... so seems like sizing is an issue here. Something I'm definitely working on. Thanks everyone for the replies!

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08-16-2016 , 01:54 PM

#14

AllinPark

centurion

Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 170

Q4s in mp is a fold pre.
Even on the Btn id hesitate isolating w it but not to say I've never done it (on Btn)
It's just a trash hand with bad position. I'm all for attacking fishes limps but Q4s in this spot will be spew long term.
AP Id raise river to 350 try to get called by Ax or weaker flush.

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08-16-2016 , 03:29 PM

#15

Steve00007

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 9,448

Calling turn and making it 225 on the river looks like you're letting him get to showdown pretty cheap. I'd at least raise more on the river.

That's a really loose PF raise. I could be okay with it if your position was better. I guess you thought that even if someone called behind you that you could still often c-bet in a 3-way pot (and maybe double or triple barrel) and take it down because this table was tight and nobody looked familiar. Or maybe you thought the table was so tight you would often get it heads up with the fish.

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08-16-2016 , 03:31 PM

#16

Senor_Enos

newbie

Join Date: May 2016 Posts: 36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve00007

I've just been trying to open up my ISOing range in spots where I think I can get HU or 3 ways with fish. This may be a bit too loose tho given my position

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08-16-2016 , 05:15 PM

#17

MikeStarr

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Join Date: Jan 2016 Posts: 7,962

Be careful opening too lite to iso a fish. Its a slippery slope before you become the fish. I speak from experience.

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08-16-2016 , 05:43 PM

#18

monikrazy

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 28,281

Villain sizing on the turn is quite strange

I think your line is ok even though I would often raise the turn and think about pot-controlling the river, maybe even make some tight checkbacks

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08-16-2016 , 06:03 PM

#19

Nice_Guy_Eddie

veteran

Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 2,135

Obviously fold pre. Qxs is too weak from MP1. I think it's fine in late position at a super tight table.

Raise-fold the turn. You want to get value before a cooler hits, either a fourth club or another paring card. A reraise is always a boat or Kxcc.

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08-17-2016 , 03:45 AM

#20

Fantastic Mr. Fox

enthusiast

Join Date: Aug 2014 Posts: 85

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nice_Guy_Eddie

Agreed. I think I'm only isolation an utg limper with this hand from the button. From MP1 its just super spew.

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08-17-2016 , 09:40 AM

#21

spikeraw22

The Situation

Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 8,741

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fantastic Mr. Fox

Agreed. I think I'm only isolation an utg limper with this hand from the button. From MP1 its just super spew.

Ya probably but it's not as horrible as people are making it out to be if you consider how tight OP described the table as being. If everyone behind you is a nit and you think you can get lots of post flop folds from limper than ATC can almost be ok with a reasonable frequency. Admittedly this has to be a perfect situation and Q4s is definitely pushing the envelope but I get it. I've been in this game before where I'm raising pretty much anything knowing its +EV.

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08-17-2016 , 09:49 AM

#22

Dream Crusher

banned

Join Date: Mar 2016 Posts: 18,786

FWIW, I've personally observed high level players ISO raise with worse holdings from worse positions at the table. Would prefer deeper stack depths to raise this wide though. I agree that Q4 should not be opened in this spot but it's not as completely terrible as everyone is making it out to be when you consider the table dynamics.

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08-17-2016 , 01:46 PM

#23

Nice_Guy_Eddie

veteran

Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 2,135

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dream Crusher

FWIW, I've personally observed high level players ISO raise with worse holdings from worse positions at the table.

2/5 live is not high level. I'm sure there are metagame/GTO reasons for high stakes players opening with suited garbage in early/middle position. It's a -EV play even for them. They do it for balance and deception. There is no need for that at low stakes.

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08-17-2016 , 06:20 PM

#24

Dream Crusher

banned

Join Date: Mar 2016 Posts: 18,786

Ummmm, no. I've seen it by high level players vs very poor opponents. They do it for a variety of reasons which have nothing to do with GTO or metagame.

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08-17-2016 , 06:22 PM

#25

Senor_Enos

newbie

Join Date: May 2016 Posts: 36

I don't think ISOing this wide is necessarily -EV when my opponents are going to make huge mistakes post flop. And it's also not something I do often, just when conditions are right

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