Hi guys (and mods if this thread belongs in a general thread, then please feel free to lock this),

So I’ve made a fair bit of blabbering in this sub forum of the benefits we receive from raising preflop over limping. Most everyone in here agrees.

However, I’m a little hung up on what the optimal strategy for RFI is against live players

1/2 and 1/3, I notice that there’s actually a fair amount of variation in RFI sizes, from fish and from reasonable players. 4x-5x seems to be the “norm”, but I’ve seen raises as big as like 7x be standard.

2/5, OTOH, almost every time I play, people open for 3x or 4x. some of the fishier opponents will throw some 5-6x’s in there, but it seems less common.

My question is, why isn’t it more common for people to make it much more than $20 preflop?

Postflop, it’s pretty common knowledge that we want to be making bets and raises that maximize our opponent’s mistakes. Essentially when we have a good hand, we generally want to size bets to where enough of his worse hands still give us action, while also being able to win the whole pot immediately and denying our opponent’s equity (this is an over generalization but work with me).

Preflop, though, we are often playing a table full of opponents who:
1) call with too wide of a range
2) three bet too narrow and too defined of a range

Common scenario: we make a raise to $15 from EP. MP with 95s calls. BTN with J8o calls. This prices BB with 63s in to make a light defend.

Now when we whiff a flop with our AK, we are basically forced to check and fold. Moreover, without top two pair or better, it’ll be hard to play for a big pot. From a range POV, MP and BTN made bad, losing plays. But from a fundamental theorem of poker POV, their calls are fine (95s has 37.2% v AK and can play the rest of the hand in position).

Essentially, what’s the argument against exploiting the player pool and waiting for the goods and pumping big value in preflop?


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Because IME at most tables you won’t get called by trash - a good result - if you raise too big (unless you are playing with an exceptionally loose and gambooly V). So standard sizing makes sense because you want people to get in there with their garbage.

Also, for the times we have AK and 95s isn’t making a technical mistake (although we all know how big of a mistake it really is), we will have A5s, AA-TT, etc. and V will be making a big mistake pre, even if we are only raising to $20.

(As an explo I will raise bigger - much bigger in some cases - if I know V will call wide for a larger sizing. But this is the exception rather than the rule.)

I agree that there’s an inflection point (like if we make it $50 with our entire range, everyone will just fold unless they’re near the top of their own range, barring being a complete moron). But it doesn’t seem common to stretch it further. Like if they’ll call $25 with the same range as $20, isn’t $25 better? Assuming we construct our own range tightly.

Good example post flop where formulation is easier: we have top set and bet - 3 bet a flop on like Js7x3s. Turn is a total blank, like a 2d. Given combos (let’s say the dude only has flush draws / combo draws and sets), we have 84% equity in a pot of X, and let’s say we have 4X behind.

What’s the best bet size? More likely than not, whatever is the most we can bet to where a flush draw will still call. If AsTs thinks it’s only making the winner around 1/6th of the time on the river, then (pot + bet + remaining stack) / bet > 5, else it has to fold. Realistically as a flush draw, it has to be higher than 5.

But let’s pretend we do bet pot and offer 5:1 maximum implied odds. This is probably close to optimal in a vacuum, as maybe half the time we get a call with 85% equity (so an EV of approx 0.55X ahead of the turn going check check, 85% share of a 3X pot where we invested X), and the other half of the time, get the money immediately.

But if dude is a degen who has to see all 5 cards, we’re best off jamming.

Apologies for the stream of consciousness, but essentially what I’m getting at is why hugely exploitative preflop strategies don’t seem to be as en vogue as compared to postflop.


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Like in your postflop example, you just have to read your table/Vs wrt their tolerance for putting money in when behind. If you can eke out an extra $5 pre then by all means do it. I just think that in most 2/5 games you are losing money with this strat and are better off with a standard 3-4x sizing.

The nice thing is that people do still limp at 2/5 and you can justifiably raise bigger in those cases and you WILL get called more often because people generally do not limp their speculative hands with the intention of folding.