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Pot overbet OTT in 1/2 Pot overbet OTT in 1/2

11-01-2015 , 06:18 PM
Hey guys. Played about 20 hours of 1/2 this weekend. Played pretty solid, maintained a 15bb/hr win rate (I know, lol sample size, but felt I played pretty good poker overall). This was my last hand of the weekend and I want some help breaking it down.

Villain 1: Middle aged arabic guy with an accent. Big stack at the table. I table changed to his table specifically to target him as he seemed very loud and boisterous, could hear him from my previous table. Zero reads outside of that as this hand occurred 3 hands after I sat down.

Hero: Overall winning image, I would show alot of bluffs that took down small pots to build a loose image to extract max value when I actually made a hand. Irrelevant though as I had not played any pots with villain.

$1/2 NL (10 handed)

$150 effective stacks.

Hero is dealt QQ UTG. Hero limps, 4 limps, SB completes, BB checks.

(table seemed more aggressive that I expected, I was relatively certain there would be a raise that I could 3! to isolate pre.... no dice).


Flop ($14) KK6
Checked all the way around to villain, who bets $14. Folded to hero, I call, everyone else folds.

Turn ($42) J

Hero checks, villain bombs the pot with $75 bet.

I start talking to him, and asking him questions. I ask him, "did you really hit that king?". He replies "No I didn't, but I know you don't have a king either". In my experience, when a player flat out says "I do not have X", it is almost always true. As such, I take any Kx out of his range.

Hero......?


Thanks in advance for any input.

Last edited by Breaking Free; 11-01-2015 at 06:23 PM.
Pot overbet OTT in 1/2 Quote
11-01-2015 , 06:44 PM
Out of interest, why did you buy in short at the new table?

OK, personally I wouldn't limp re-raise QQ much since players call 3bets quite tight so your value is minimal from this play IMO. I also wouldn't start limp-reraising even KK+ till I had been sat at a table a while and knew it was aggro and specifically who was most likely to raise a bunch of limpers when I'm in EP.

On to the flop. Obviously you are going to call the flop bet because you can't raise and be called by worse but villain could be just trying to pick up the pot after everyone showed no interest.

On the turn villain starts playing mind games with you. I don't know for sure what he is doing but, based on commonly understood poker psychology:

1) he probably doesn't have a King., telling truth about that.
2) he probably hopes you do have a king, lying about that.
3) he probably has 66 or JJ.

Why do I think this? He is loud and bombastic - so he is extrovert and has a big ego and cares about how the table views him. He will look cleverer and funnier if he doesn't have a King here than if he does so that's probably the case.

However, you are quizzing him following his big bet so he knows you are contemplating calling. He doesn't try to put you off though, on the contrary he tries to goad you into calling by saying he doesn't have K and that he knows you don't. He is trying to tell you it is OK to call and challenging your ego by telling you he knows what you have. That is bound to make most poker players puff up their chests and continue in the hand.

I think it is very safe to fold this hand. I would challenge him to show if you fold though, tell him you think he has a K for sure and that he is lying and then fold. You might get some free info out of him if you're lucky/annoying enough.

He will certainly show if he is bluffing though.
Pot overbet OTT in 1/2 Quote
11-01-2015 , 07:20 PM
Not a fan of the ol' limp-raise gag and you got what you deserved IMO: playing premiums in a tiny pot 7 ways OOP. Given stack sizes, you can simply make a decent raise pre and look to stack a fool on a decent run out. Winning poker is boring poker.

As played it's easy to fold the turn, you can save time by not quizzing this guy, so tedious when people act like they're playing the WSOP instead of a $40 pot. If you must have the info just ask if he'll show if you fold, if he didn't have it he will 90% likely rub your face in it, so if he doesn't show, he probably had the K.

EDIT

Yeah I guess I got slowponied by Ragequit, he said it all.
Pot overbet OTT in 1/2 Quote
11-01-2015 , 08:08 PM
Thanks for the inputs gents.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WereBeer
Not a fan of the ol' limp-raise gag and you got what you deserved IMO: playing premiums in a tiny pot 7 ways OOP. Given stack sizes, you can simply make a decent raise pre and look to stack a fool on a decent run out. Winning poker is boring poker.
I agree. I have a terrible tendency to limp if UTG when holding premium hands expecting to 3!. Its a definite leak that I need to plug.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragequit99

On the turn villain starts playing mind games with you. I don't know for sure what he is doing but, based on commonly understood poker psychology:

1) he probably doesn't have a King., telling truth about that.
2) he probably hopes you do have a king, lying about that.
3) he probably has 66 or JJ.

Why do I think this? He is loud and bombastic - so he is extrovert and has a big ego and cares about how the table views him. He will look cleverer and funnier if he doesn't have a King here than if he does so that's probably the case.
On these points, particularly 3, I thought the same.

However, the bet size was so erratic, I thought it was a scared bet. I believed that he knew I did not have a king from my flop play, and considered that this bet could be a bluff/semi bluff. The standard play I had seen in this card room was playing big hands for relatively straight value, most overbets like this had ended up being semi/bluffs on draws or weakly made hands.

With that being said, I put his range as 66, JJ-QQ (queens unlikely obviously), AJ, Q10. Against this range I hold 67% equity. Do you think this is a realistic villain range, or am I not giving his bet enough credit?
Pot overbet OTT in 1/2 Quote
11-01-2015 , 08:29 PM
not a fan of l/rr. AP when people say i don't have X its true that they usually don't have that but they almost never are bluffing. People don't want to take good hands out of their range if they are bluffing and since he bet in polarizing I'm guessing that he is very strong here. I don't think he plays AJ or something like this so it looks like 66 or jj or maybe a lie with a K. I think you can just fold now but really need to raise this pre.
Pot overbet OTT in 1/2 Quote
11-01-2015 , 08:56 PM
Is QQ the lowest premium PP you'll limp with UTG, lookin' to iso-raise pre?
Do you have any other examples of you baggin' a pot playin' QQ like this?
Pot overbet OTT in 1/2 Quote
11-01-2015 , 10:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter3041
not a fan of l/rr. AP when people say i don't have X its true that they usually don't have that but they almost never are bluffing. People don't want to take good hands out of their range if they are bluffing and since he bet in polarizing I'm guessing that he is very strong here. I don't think he plays AJ or something like this so it looks like 66 or jj or maybe a lie with a K. I think you can just fold now but really need to raise this pre.
Agreed as said above about the l/r. I wont make that leak anymore.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZuneIt
Is QQ the lowest premium PP you'll limp with UTG, lookin' to iso-raise pre?
Do you have any other examples of you baggin' a pot playin' QQ like this?
I've already said this was a mistake, so if you have nothing to add beyond further criticizing what I've already admitted was poor play, then feel free to not clog up thread space
Pot overbet OTT in 1/2 Quote
11-01-2015 , 11:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Breaking Free
Villain 1: Middle aged arabic guy with an accent. Big stack at the table. I table changed to his table specifically to target him as he seemed very loud and boisterous, could hear him from my previous table. Zero reads outside of that as this hand occurred 3 hands after I sat down.

Hero: Overall winning image
. I would show alot of bluffs that took down small pots to build a loose image to extract max value when I actually made a hand. Irrelevant though as I had not played any pots with
How do you have a "winning image" if you just table changed 3 hands ago to play with this villain?

And why are you buying in for anything less than the max if you are up $600 for the weekend and specifically changed tables just to target this big stack?

These are rhetorical questions so you don't need to respond but it doesn't make sense to me.
Pot overbet OTT in 1/2 Quote
11-02-2015 , 12:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnyBuz
How do you have a "winning image" if you just table changed 3 hands ago to play with this villain?

And why are you buying in for anything less than the max if you are up $600 for the weekend and specifically changed tables just to target this big stack?

These are rhetorical questions so you don't need to respond but it doesn't make sense to me.
Not to mention this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Breaking Free
Hey guys. Played about 20 hours of 1/2 this weekend. Played pretty solid, maintained a 15bb/hr win rate (I know, lol sample size, but felt I played pretty good poker overall). This was my last hand of the weekend and I want some help breaking it down.

Villain 1: Middle aged arabic guy with an accent. Big stack at the table. I table changed to his table specifically to target him as he seemed very loud and boisterous, could hear him from my previous table. Zero reads outside of that as this hand occurred 3 hands after I sat down.

Hero: Overall winning image, I would show alot of bluffs that took down small pots to build a loose image to extract max value when I actually made a hand. Irrelevant though as I had not played any pots with villain.
So you table change to play specifically against this V and leave 4 hands after you played him?
Pot overbet OTT in 1/2 Quote
11-02-2015 , 12:23 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnny_on_the_spot
So you table change to play specifically against this V and leave 4 hands after you played him?
Spoiler: my guess is H got it in, V had K or flopped full house, H got stacked, left.

Limping QQ UTG is typically a mistake, esp at a table you just joined three hands earlier. Three hands is not a sample size to figure player tendencies and assume there will be a raise, and, I don't love QQ for that play anyway.
Post flop: you're possibly way behind. Not the best spot to play a big pot. I'd discount JJ from Vs range, but 66 and any Kx is possible.
OTF, he bet pot, see who's interested. OTT, he bet big bc he figured he had you hook line and sinker.
Pot overbet OTT in 1/2 Quote
11-02-2015 , 12:31 AM
I can't wait for you to post a hand history titled, "L/rr w QQ gets 4!, Can I fold here?"
Pot overbet OTT in 1/2 Quote
11-02-2015 , 12:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Breaking Free
He replies "No I didn't, but I know you don't have a king either".
66 or JJ imo.

Ragequit99 has the details.
Pot overbet OTT in 1/2 Quote
11-02-2015 , 12:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnyBuz
How do you have a "winning image" if you just table changed 3 hands ago to play with this villain?

And why are you buying in for anything less than the max if you are up $600 for the weekend and specifically changed tables just to target this big stack?
Your rhetorical questions have logical answers, so I'll respond. I was 13 hours into a session and had played with half of the people on the table. I clarified it was irrelevant due to not having played with that specific villain.

Second, when you table change in this room, you have to take off any chips over the table max. As such when I sat down I did not have the stack I had previously. I never buy in for less than the table max typically.

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnny_on_the_spot
So you table change to play specifically against this V and leave 4 hands after you played him?
I had 1 hour left on my time play goal, I was 13 hours deep and felt I might not be playing my A game. Called it a night as such.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dutchstreetfish
Limping QQ UTG is typically a mistake, esp at a table you just joined three hands earlier. Three hands is not a sample size to figure player tendencies and assume there will be a raise, and, I don't love QQ for that play anyway.
Post flop: you're possibly way behind. Not the best spot to play a big pot. I'd discount JJ from Vs range, but 66 and any Kx is possible.
OTF, he bet pot, see who's interested. OTT, he bet big bc he figured he had you hook line and sinker.
I think this is a logical analysis. I as well didn't really think JJ was in his range.... but then again I am the fish that limped OOP with QQ lol. Thanks for the constructive criticism.

Quote:
Originally Posted by surviva316
I can't wait for you to post a hand history titled, "L/rr w QQ gets 4!, Can I fold here?"
Unfortunate that you drop a sarcasm line on me when I am asking what I think to be a pretty rational question (specifically, was my villain range at all feasible in that spot, or am I not giving nearly enough credit), especially since your post history seems to be full of great responses. Oh well, thanks anyways
Pot overbet OTT in 1/2 Quote
11-02-2015 , 01:54 AM
Unless you can get enough $ in pre to set up an SPR to get ai otf regardless of the board, I think l/rr is unbelievably overrated. Raise UTG.

Every once in a while I throw in a limp in EP with a big pp though. On this board if preflop was limped around I'd b/f the whole way or c/c-b/f-b/f.
Pot overbet OTT in 1/2 Quote
11-02-2015 , 11:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Breaking Free
Unfortunate that you drop a sarcasm line on me when I am asking what I think to be a pretty rational question (specifically, was my villain range at all feasible in that spot, or am I not giving nearly enough credit), especially since your post history seems to be full of great responses. Oh well, thanks anyways
I'm sorry for my curt and lazy response.

My point was that a lot of times people get trixxy with great-but-non-nut holdings and then don't know what to do when they face the action they were looking for. You see this a lot of time with baby two pairs, for example.

If you were l/rr'ing with the expectation that villains would only 4b KK+ exactly, then this isn't such a bad play to manipulate their ranges so that you don't lose a big pot against those hands. If you did this with the expectation that villains would spazz out with worse and we can get fat value shoving over any 4b, then this plan isn't so bad.

The vast majority of the time, though, you're just better off bet/bet/bet/betting with a hand like this. L/rr'ing simultaneous gives villains the opportunity to see a cheap flop against you, and even when they don't get a cheap flop, you end up almost OVERrepping your hand, so that alarm bells are going off for everyone before the pot has gotten a chance to get big.

I'm talking in a very general sense, but this is all just to kind of scratch the surface of a lot of considerations that your plan didn't seem to give much consideration too.
Pot overbet OTT in 1/2 Quote
11-03-2015 , 12:12 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragequit99
Out of interest, why did you buy in short at the new table?

OK, personally I wouldn't limp re-raise QQ much since players call 3bets quite tight so your value is minimal from this play IMO. I also wouldn't start limp-reraising even KK+ till I had been sat at a table a while and knew it was aggro and specifically who was most likely to raise a bunch of limpers when I'm in EP.

On to the flop. Obviously you are going to call the flop bet because you can't raise and be called by worse but villain could be just trying to pick up the pot after everyone showed no interest.

On the turn villain starts playing mind games with you. I don't know for sure what he is doing but, based on commonly understood poker psychology:

1) he probably doesn't have a King., telling truth about that.
2) he probably hopes you do have a king, lying about that.
3) he probably has 66 or JJ.

Why do I think this? He is loud and bombastic - so he is extrovert and has a big ego and cares about how the table views him. He will look cleverer and funnier if he doesn't have a King here than if he does so that's probably the case.

However, you are quizzing him following his big bet so he knows you are contemplating calling. He doesn't try to put you off though, on the contrary he tries to goad you into calling by saying he doesn't have K and that he knows you don't. He is trying to tell you it is OK to call and challenging your ego by telling you he knows what you have. That is bound to make most poker players puff up their chests and continue in the hand.

I think it is very safe to fold this hand. I would challenge him to show if you fold though, tell him you think he has a K for sure and that he is lying and then fold. You might get some free info out of him if you're lucky/annoying enough.

He will certainly show if he is bluffing though.
Solid post, Sir.
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