Player's information is borrowed from Was this a really bad call play on my part?

Here is the hand.. 1/2 no limit everyone has between 200-300 behind

UTG +2 raises to 10
UTG +3 calls
Button calls

I am in BB with A 8 I call 8more.

41 in pot.

Here are the 4 scenarios that I struggle with, what would you do in these spots:

1. Flopped two to the flush (ie. 10K5)


2. A-high board (ie. A57)


3. Some sort of straight draw (ie. 569)


4. Top/bottom (ie. AK8)

I like what your doing here.

1. I think its dependent on the type of vills in the hand. Either lead for 2/3 3/4 pot or check raise. This would depend on villians tendencies. For instance if vills are more aggro I'm c/r if more passive donking out.(thats kinda generic but you get the point) With 3 players in the pot this flop should hit everyone so a big pot seems likely. I want to be the one applying the pressure though.

2. I'm check calling one bet and reevaluating the turn. Again depending on the vill, the turn could be a c/f, if it goes c/c I'd value bet the end more than likely. Obv if theres a bet and a raise in front of me I'm just folding.

3. This is almost always a c/f multiway regardless of the other players.

4. Again villian dependant but I like a donk out here generaly multiway. If you get by the first guy w/o a raise you normally can rule out AK. I would just bet 3 streets 2/3 pot assuming the board dosn't get super gross.

Another line I use in this kinda spot (especially if I get called in 2 places) lead flop/check/call turn, pause for awhile on the blank river and then lead big again (psb or over bet). If vill value bets light, like AQ into 2 two people who have called two bets, then c/r river.

C/R the flop is an option, but in multiway pots when ever theres two broadway cards leading out is my perfered line. I don't love any paint ott in a multiway pot so I want to lead strong and play head up against Ax here if at all possible. After we trim the field on the flop we can start to get creative in trying to get max value the rest of the way. Also I don't want to blow someone off a A10 type w/ a flop c/r when they almost always will payoff atleast two streets.

Again all this is real general, things change depending on the players involved.

Solid post IMO. Only thing I do different is I probably take more of a pot control line on flop #1. I don't like to play big pots with draws OOP, so depending on the action I probably c/c. I would only lead or c/r in this spot with a read that my opponent is a fit/fold type player (lead), or a player that will fire a lot of cbets with air and then give up (c/r).

I still think our hand doesn't play well enough OOP multiway to call this pre.

I'd call A2-A5s and ATs+, but this hand is a 2pair, trips, flush hand only. The others add some straights and increase the value of the hand. Even hitting a flush with this hand OOP will give us issues.

would need reads on villains and stack sizes

Even though we're dominated, we're obviously not playing this hand to flop TP. It's going to be a multiway pot, for a small percentage of our stack, plus we have great relative position to the raiser (we can check and then see what he and the rest of the field do before usually closing out the action). So I also call preflop.

1) With the raiser being on our left, I just check/evaluate my nut flush draw. We'll typically be getting great odds to call so I just call along, though I'll fold if there's a bet/raise. I don't like leading because (a) we'll just narrow the field to hands better than ours (that probably ain't folding) OOP and (b) there's no point to intentionally build a pot to help get stacks in later cuz we're already basically there in this raised pot. I also don't like check/raising big as with a bet into a multiway pot and a caller or two are fold equity is pretty small, methinks.

2) I check/fold. If someone bets on this fairly drawless board, all we are beating is a bluff and we're OOP; how many more bets are we going to put in to see if we're best? I just bail now; I didn't play this hand to hit one pair.

3) I would just check/fold gutshots; it's unlikely we'll be getting the odds we need to chase. I would also be very careful with one card OESDs as our implied odds suck, we're chopping a lot, etc., so unless we're getting fairly decent immediate odds, I'd probably just check/fold those too. Even worse is when there is flush draw out there as well (that we don't have), which not only might limit our outs but also destroys our implied odds even more (i.e. we might hit our straight but if the flush comes people will be even less likely to pay us off).

4) With the raiser being on our left, I probably go for a check/raise here and hope some money goes into the pot before springing the trap. Big A boards are kinda tricky though cuz with a raiser and multiple callers it's possible we just got coolered, in which case I think I could actually check/fold if there was a bet and a big raiser by a nittier player.

GcluelessNLnoobG

I generally hate leading in hand 1 because getting raised by the PFR sucks balls and blows out a lot of other hands we want in the pot.

But generally what 808 said.

Can we just discuss preflop for a bit? I feel like I call this in game, but I think we shouldn't be calling that much. It's for somewhere between 2.7%-4% (200$-300$) of our stack. If we are OPENLY admitting we have to flop 2pair+ to make it even remotely playable, shouldn't we be considering this?

2pair+ odds: 4.19%
FD: 11%

So when you assume sometimes we flop 2pair and lose to sets/better 2pair (AJ8), sometimes flop trips and get pwned (AA6), and probably don't really get paid a bunch when nail the flop (A88, 88x, etc), I again ask is playing this hand worth it?

Really open to discuss it, I'm not sure what is best, but it seems like we are just playing for flush/fd capabilities. I can't see it being worth it.

We are OOP all hand and really only win stacks with flush over flush or 88x vs. 89 or something.

I don't think preflop is ideal, but if there was a raiser and two callers and we had the button, we'd be in there, right (especially for well less than 5% of our stack, plus the discount due to being in BB)? And playing to the right of the raiser is almost like having the button (if he bets, we get to see the action / pot odds / close the action).

I'm also playing AAx flops extremely passively (we're in a WA/WB situation, so we're not looking to play a situation where 3 streets of betting is going in, cuz what worse hand is giving us that kind of action?).

But you may be right, it may be too loose. Especially if we're playing at a table full of good players. The more pay-off donks in the pot, the more I lean towards a call preflop.

Firstly, having the raiser on our left (I think that's what is going on here, you confused me slightly) isn't like us having the button...we have to check to him for us to act last. Right? So we are OOP. Getting to close the action after he bets, but we can't pot control, get bets in by raising (except check raising), etc. He is IP...I feel like I'm reading something wrong because we are in the blinds and you are implying we have some positional advantage postflop.

If we aren't even excited about AAX flops, aren't we better off waiting for any other suited ace with better kickers (allows us to be safer with AAX) or worse kickers (adding in straight possibilities)?

I think most of us can agree that in these scenarios, we're pretty much stuck with more conservative lines with a hand like A/8s.

I was under the impression that someone has a better idea for more aggressive lines and have logic behind these lines, hence the reason why I started a new thread and not hi-jacking the other thread.

@abgtr, and I agree with you that playing this hand, in most cases, is simply too much work/risk to justify the return, even in a multi-way pot.

This. I fold this pf for the specific reason that A8s is a difficult hand to play in almost all the situations mentioned. Calling pf with A8s, you are basically looking to flop a 4flush or 88x, as they're really the only hands that play well. Even then, its hard to maximaize value when you're OOP.

As mentioned by abgtr, AXs that can flop a wheel, or A10s+ are a different story. The wheel AXs have more possibility after the flop. However, OOP, I'm still probably folding them to a raise. Calling a raise in position with the wheel AXs is fine though, IMO. A10s+ is just a stronger hand where you will not deal with such significant kicker problems.

Calling a pf raise with AXs<A10 OOP is a leak IMO.

1. Flopped two to the flush (ie. 10K5)
-c/c if heads up
-c/r if you have at least one other person in the hand
--And doubly so if someone else has ch/ca and they are now "between" you and the cbettor, since cbettor cant do much without a real hand given the cold call behind, and the guy who flats will have to play OOP on later streets

2. A-high board (ie. A57)
-c/c always
-lead certain turn cards

3. Some sort of straight draw (ie. 569)
-ch/fo
--dont draw to a 4str8 on board, youll chop more than you win

4. Top/bottom (ie. AK8)
-Ch/ra if you know the guy will always cbet
-lead for full pot if you arent sure he'll bet

8 to win 43?!? You only need like 19% equity... which you will have with ANY hand in this spot, especially a suited ace...
I think you have a point if you are an inexperienced player, but if you have a grasp of how to play you are losing alot of money folding this given the odds.... OOP headsup for sure fold, but in a 4+ way pot, you have to call with such a good mw hand

The advantage we have is that if he leads we then get to see what types of odds we are getting for our draw (our most likely hand we're going to stick around with on the flop) closing the action. As opposed to if there was a late position raiser after a bunch of limp/callers, we are now in bad relative position on the flop cuz if he leads then we don't know if we can chase our draw because we have others yet to act after us (who might be going for a check/raise).

But yeah, being OOP still has the disadvantages of it being more difficult to get paid off when we hit, more difficult to attempt to take a free card, pot control, etc.

I didnt notice that we're talking about a situation of a five way flop. That does increase the playability somewhat. And, frankly, I personally am probably calling in that situation (probably calling even 3way )

^^ Yah 3 is cutting it very close, and id say thats the marginal line - at this point its really going to depend on your opponents range and tendencies postflop. 4+ is a no brainer, and in fact sometimes I might even squeeze from the BB if the situation warrants it

just read this gem.


Holdem Poker Simulation by ev++ Equity Calculator :: Enumerated 600000 hands

Player	Hands	Combos / %	Win Hi %	Tie Hi %	Equity %
1	Ac8c	1 / 0.1%	11.87	1.26	12.45
2	AQ	12 / 0.9%	23.12	1.26	23.71
3	99	6 / 0.5%	22.41	0.15	22.44
4	5h6h	1 / 0.1%	20.01	0.15	20.04
5	JT	16 / 1.2%	21.33	0.15	21.36

This is just a random hand assortment that should be mildly representative of the field. Changing 99 to 77 gives us 15.8%. Still not 19%.

I agree I'd hate getting raised to. Thats why I said it depends entirely on the vills in the hand. Without knowing who your playing against its hard or impossible to say what line is the best. Thats why I said i was making broad sweeping generalizations.

Your logic is flawed, if we KNEW someone had AQ we would obviously not be in this hand... you can pick out specific hands like you did and it will alter the equity, but we have to assign them a range and not a specific hand...

Kinda like this:
(Also, please note its 4 and not 5 handed)

ProPokerTools Hold'em Simulation

600,000 trials (Randomized)

Hand	Pot equity	Wins	Ties
Ac8c	19.59%	108,672	20,213
15%	26.83%	152,421	19,143
15%	26.73%	151,927	18,934
15%	26.85%	152,587	19,064

And if you adjust it to each of them having the top 10% of there range, you end up with a little under 18% equity

Obviously our equity sucks, but isn't this all about implied odds? I mean, kinda like why we would call preflop with 87s knowing that a villain has AA; obviously we're a huge dog preflop, but if we think we have massive implied odds postflop then pretty easy call.

Everyone, keep in mind that the goal of this discussion isn't really to discuss whether it's +EV to call with this hand in BB, but rather if there are better lines to tackle the 4 common situations we will run into.

Fair enough.

I'll also say that me check/raising top-bottom two pair might be a leftover from my limit days. Perhaps it is simply best to bet/bet/bet?

Again its all going to depend on your opponents... If you have a guy whos cbetting 100% of the time, its obviously better value for the ch/r where as if you have a guy who never cbets, its likely best to lead out and build the pot.

It also depends on how we are percieved by the other players, and how they think we play our made hands and draws.

I get what you're trying to do with the "discuss" other options, but unfortunately there isnt really enough information to warrant discussion of other lines... And the reason why we take these lines is becuase they are "default" lines that we take when we have little information.... Do you see the issue here?

I totally agree, just that this thread was an extension of another thread, which I referenced in my OP, and I didn't have the time to create a more elaborated villain.

I also started this thread because I was under the impression that one of the responders, of that other thread, had a strong idea of how to play in these scenarios profitably as a general consensus, hence the reason why I decided to start the conversation.

Meanwhile, when I get some time today or tomorrow, I'll develop a more sophisticated villain and some history associated with the villain for an "improved" discussion.

1) id probably check raise, lead, shove (if club or doesnt A hit) if either of those hits, bet, bet bigger but not shove
2) check call on flop n turn n reevaluate on the river
3) check fold
4) donk bet/call, donk bet shove turn on non KQJ turns (if its AK+ kinda unlucky)