$2/$5

Very solid player UTG+1 ($500) raises to $15. Hero ($450) calls with KsQh in the cutoff. Another very solid player in BB ($400) calls.

As soon as I called I thought "WTF are you doing calling a raise from this guy with KQ". $15 is his standard open raise. He is pretty tight and ABC so he has a big ace or 99+. I know.....fold preflop...but Im here.

Flop ($45) 8s 5s 2s .....checked around

Turn ($45) Kd. BB leads $30. UTG+1 calls. What do you do here? I feel like UTG+1 ether has the As or has AK with no spade. Seems like a raise is in order to make him fold?

Why not bet flop? You think you can raise him off As OTT?

Sure, I could go all in. Not planning on doing that but it would work.

Betting the flop would've been an option also but I decided against it. Looking back it may have been a better play especially against these two guys. I dont think they are chasing with a bare As if I bet pot because we've played together enough to know that Im not paying them off if they hit.

Ok fair.

So, you are not worried about BB? Would UTG+1 really check that flop with AsKx or any As that he'd raise pre with? He should fold AxKx, but really not sure he's folding AsXx, but maybe. How do they see you? Will they respect your raise? Will BB fold a small flush? What do you put BB on?

I probably just take a free card here against two players and evaluate river.

Im a little worried about both of them. They both know I play mostly TAG but mix it up a bit here and there as do both of them. Im having a tough time putting either of them on a hand and I dont know if Im raising for value or not. I also dont know which river cards are good or bad for me or them.

In a spot like this I normally opt for pot control since I have no idea where I am, but flat calling feels weak here.

I think you have to make it $120-$150, so to me, it depends on if I'm willing to gii with this hand on the turn. If so, raise; if not, flat. I guess you can raise/fold, but it's gross with your hand, pot, stacks, etc., and I would hate it.

I call.

This is the right answer. Calling is wrong.

The only hands that are really crushing you right now are AsKx and sets. You're beating any spade draw, any worse king, and 67.

go for value now before a river card ruins your action. Another spade shuts down anything that's not a flush, and you probably aren't making much money with a flush. You might get a bet if someone has KxQs, or QxQs, but that's a stretch.

If a spade comes and someone leads river after you raised the turn. You're toast. Fold river in that situation. If they check a 4th spade to you, you can check back and take the showdown. Not much worse will pay you, and you don't wanna get check-raised.

An ace on the river also sucks.

Everything else is bet/fold material if it's checked to you. If they lead any other river, you can bluff catch if the price is sensible.

Problem with raising is, if these guys are solid/good your getting looked up by Vs AK. No way would you check back a flush/set/As on the flop. I like just giving up here after BBs lead and UTG raisers call, very likely he hit that K.

Agree that calling is worst option. I don't think a raise is repping much here tho. If I'm in UTGs spot w/ AK I'd take it to the felt if BB folds out.

Some thoughts..

I think you gotta throw out the AsKx combos. That only leaves 6 combos of AK that beat you, and they are gonna have a tough time calling our raise on this board without the re-draw.

Don't like the fold

That's why I like betting the flop. We can get OR to fold all of his big aces unless he has a spade. BB will fold a lot of his PP unless he has a spade

We still have BB in the hand, and OP doesn't know his range, either. I don't see how raise/folding is ever good here against two VERY SOLID players, especially when one started the hand with $400 and just bet the turn -- and was called. Is BB ever folding a flush here or the As or a set?

That's not much of a read. And based on other posts by the OP, I'm not going to accept his opinion of who is and isn't "solid".

No, he'll raise with it. Or he'll call and lead river. And we make a disciplined fold. That's preferable to calling on the turn and letting this guy make a pot-sized river bet for value. If you aren't calling that, then fold the hand. Raising now sets your own price for showdown against non-flushes.

We're beating the As


Maybe. it's not unheard of. but if he does call, he'll probably check the river, again allowing US to set the price for showdown

If we raise now to $120-ish....

we can fold if raised
we can fold if they call and then lead turn (strong line)
we can check back and get to showdown for an extra $90 on top of V's bet.

If we just call....

V leads for PSB. We probably still call, investing way more than the $90 we could have put in on the turn, for the same showdown. So we pay more, to see a showdown against a stronger range, and basically surrender any fold equity we had on the turn. Dont like it.

Or

V check/folds because he just had a naked As and missed the river. And we lost value by not raising turn. Don't like it.

Don't like it -- either V could raise with a hand we are ahead of.
You mean river, correct? Any river? Either player?

Now the river is huge and we are folding to any bet, so how are we getting to showdown cheaper? Plus, there are two Vs.
We're folding to a bet when we put more money in on turn, but now calling no matter what? I don't understand this. Again, I would like to know the river card before I make my decision.

There are two Vs.

I don't like it, I disagree, and I'm shocked anyone would post something like this.

OK, I'm done with this one. I am calling flop. I will check when OP updates.

No. We're not getting 3-bet out of position on a flushed board, with a hand worst than Top pair, weak kicker, and 2nd nut re-draw. IF we get raised, we are toast. Burnt toast.

Besides, if they are soooo eager to to spew chips with hands worse than ours....shouldn't we be putting money into the pot?? You have the wrong read, and you're using it wrong.

Yes I mean river, and yes either player. I'd be pretty shocked if we raised and got called in two places. If that's the case, it's the same as getting raised, we're toast.

Because a a turn call plus V's river bet is more money than our turn raise. If we raise the turn, we're only getting to showdown if it's checked to us. If one of the V's raises the turn, or leads river, we are toast. Burnt toast. And we found out for a price that WE decided. Calling turn and calling river costs more money to find out the same information.

Probably not after we raise turn.

You're confusing lines. We can raise/fold on the turn. But ***IF*** we just call, then I assume you intend to call a river bet as well, don't you?

Why are you calling on the turn if you don't know what your plan is for the river? "call and evaluate" is not a strategy. It's playing poker like it's a slot machine.

Not after we raise turn.

I think you mean turn

Well done pre. I'd fire a bet on the flop. When the preflop raiser checks a monochrome board, I usually bet out. I'd especially be with the second nut flush draw.

I'd call the turn. You still have a good draw and TPGK. You end the action for 3.5:1 odds and get to see the river. I would definitely not raise into two players.

If you have a snug image AND these villains are just solid ABC players who aren't thinking on a deep level, I like a raise to $130 here. You aren't repping much, but that usually doesn't matter againbst straightforward opponents. If you have a snug image and raise to $130 here, you are going to get credit for a strong hand. The goal is to fold out the few combos of hands that are ahead of you (namely AK no spade), and get value from flush draws. checking back most rivers. The downside to this is when one of the Vs has a small made flush and decides to rip it in on the turn, and you lose the chance to draw cheaply. However, in those cases, you are rarely getting paid big if your flush comes in anyway, so the $30 call is barely profitable and you aren't making a massive mistake by having to fold your equity. I really don't see either V semi-bluff shipping a hand worse than ours on the turn, but I guess you know these villains better than me.

If you have an aggressive image, or these guys are willing to go to the felt with a medium strength hand because your line doesn't make sense, then I just call the $30 and see what happens on the river.

Do you have the best draw? Maybe not. Do you have the best made hand? Maybe not. Do you have any fold equity? Maybe not.

So what is it that you do have, and why is this even a thread?

Do you think the K turned your steaming pile of pumpkin poo into a fancy coach? When you look up RIO in the dictionary, you get a link to this hand history.

Put in a raise, and you will get a snap shove about half the time.

Sorry, but this is straight up garbage.

We have position, there are a whole pile of different scenarios that can happen on a whole pile of different river cards. Call and evaluate is a perfectly fine strategy in a lot of situations. Depending on the river card, and depending on the action in front, we can make a decision on the river, but the notion that we have to pre-decide our river action on the turn is absurd.

I may or may not have the best hand and I may or may not have the best draw. THAT is why the hand is interesting. You and PokerEZ need to take it down a notch. Im still trying to decide which of you is more annoying and obnoxious

I raised the turn to $100. The BB called and UTG+1 (original preflop raiser) folded.

Board is 8s 5s 2s Kd

River ($275) 9c. BB checks......

Ouch. I check behind with our showdown potential. I don't think he's ever folding a set or flush and I doubt he has a bare K, but if he does, he's probably not paying you off.

I did not like the raise idea, but I do think it's an interesting hand. Very curious what he has.

Whatever you do, don't bet/fold!

check back now, unless you think he would fold AK, a set, 2-pair or a small flush to a shove. you have some showdown value against AsXx and KxJs type hands, and I doubt he came this far with a hand better than yours just to fold the river.

I like the raise idea, but I don't think $100 was enough. Too cheap for AK or a scraggly 2-pair to stick around.

What are you thinking Mike?
You're facing a bet and call in a single raised pot after a monotone flop checks through, exactly how weak/wide are their ranges here? Your raising line (after ck bk Flop) is perceived as a nuts or air only line, besides which, removing NF from either of their ranges is preposterous. KQhh would fold 100% right? which means your pair equity is extraordinarily thin... So all you are doing is making this pot bigger as a low quality bluff while blocking the 2NFD hands you'd normally need them to have to make this work.
It's likely still a call given you have some SDV here if riv checks through, but folding away your blind is a reasonable play as well.