Hi all,

I played this hand a while ago and thought it was pretty interesting, I think there should be good scope for discussion as post-flop I think people will differ on the best way to play.

Hero - (£1000) White 30yr old, has been running on god mode, had AA and KK twice in first hour getting paid everytime, has looked like I've been bullying the table due to getting good cards and hitting almost everytime, have been able to use my big stack to put pressure on the table but have not been playing laggy, always showing down good pf starting hands and made hands at showdown.

SB - (£400) No reads just sat down, doesn't give the impression of being that great a player.

MP1 - (300) big fish, i've made most of my money from this guy as anytime he hits a piece of the board he cannot fold. loose passive looks like he's got a lot of money as he must be in for about £800.

MP2 - (£600) mid 30's italian, decent enough player, plays a tag style, rarely bluffs apart from c-betting etc... haven't seen him get out of line, he's tried to avoid playing big pots against me, taking passive lines oop.

Pre-flop is pretty standard so I won't bother waiting

mp1 limps, mp2 limps, hero raises to 12 with AhQs (I think 12-15 is fine here anyone think different please say so, and why).

sb calls, mp1 calls, mp2 calls

Pot 50 Flop Qh 7h, 4c

SB bets 15, mp1 folds, mp2 raises to 30, hero???

So he's trying to avoid playing big pots against you, has played passively out of position, then min-raises an unknown with the preflop raiser still behind him. You're definitely WA/WB in this situation. I'm not super crazy about Raise/folding here, because if MP2 flats you'll be in a pretty sticky spot in a bloated pot with hand you probably don't want to go to the felt with. I think this is pretty close between a call and a fold honestly, because although you're getting good odds on the call, it looks like MP2 isn't really trying to drive you out of the hand which is bad news, imo.

I think 300bb deep effective I get away from this here, because unless no more money goes into this pot, I think we're toast.

ugh, this is tough. Its hard to put MP2 on a hand because it is still only a 30 dollar bet into a 65 dollar pot. He might be raising just to take control away from MP1 and find out where hero is.

What do you guys think of raising to 75 here, if we get raised by anyone we can safely fold our hand. If they flat call they are likely to check to us (especially since he's avoiding big pots oop) on the turn and we can check behind (I'm a little worried about giving a free card on a draw heavy board like that, but I think pot control is more important.) Then on the river we can call any reasonable sized bet assuming the board didn't get horrible.

I don't like calling here because you know that SB is coming along with whatever he has and you are involved in a $150 pot on the turn, 3 ways in a WA/WB situation on a draw heavy board, with no idea where you are at.

I don't think folding is wrong here. No point getting involved in such a marginal situation this deep.

Not sure, fold slightly better or equal to raise, way greater than call

TPTK with a backdoor flush draw on a board that is not really that drawy given the PFR? I find it hard to believe that folding is the best EV play here.

I also don't think you need to raise here to "find out where you are at". Your action does not close the betting. If you flat, and SB flats, you have certainly found out something about his hand. If SB raises, regardless of what MP does, I think you can safely let your hand go.

Given our position, I think I like a call better than a raise. See the turn and their actions and re evaluate.

**I will also say that in the games I play, a PFR to 12 is pretty standard. KQs, QJs, all pocket pairs would definitely still be in play. Given MPs read, you can probably discount 56 for him, but SB could certainly still have that....

Aren't most TAGs raising KQs pf here? if this is the case there are roughly as many combos of sets as TPGK out there, I think QTs could be included in his range and maybe discounted version of QT-Ko, but does he raise those hands here if he's playing a bit scared of hero?

Also, if we call and the SB calls, whats your plan on the turn. Pretty much every card changes the texture of the board, so if we're going to call, I'd much rather have a good idea of what I was hoping to do on the turn.

I know that just giving up may not be the most immediately +ev decision, but I feel like we're in a serious RIO situation here, and if we would fold to a lot of future bets, we should just fold now.

I generally don't like getting involved in bigger pots with TAGs deepstacked, when I don't have a hand that is either A. very strong, or B. has a good chance of becoming very strong. If we're behind here against MP2 no turn card helps us (edit: obviously another heart helps, but we won't likely win a ton if our flush comes in). In soft games this attitude can't possibly be much of a leak, if it is one at all.

I probably just call.

I'm always wary of player descriptions in PAHWMs. It always ends with Old Man Coffee 4 bet-jamming the turn with bottom pair and a gutshot, or the Solid TAG limp calling J4s.

Everything, absolutely everything, about this hand, depends on what we know about MP2. You would need to tell us every hand he's played in the session where he was involved beyond the flop. MP1 is wide enough to not unduly about his donk just yet. We are ahead of his range.

Anyway, with limited information we will asume that he's mainly got a value hand. But his range is still reasonably wide here. It's just one flop miniraise. I wouldn't raise because his calling range crushes us. Folding here is just wrong and nitty. We are deep enough for our BDNFD to matter. People always bang on about position when in <100bb pots it isn't always the key factor. Here, it is.

Flat, fold to any more flop action. Mainly folding to >1/2 psb on the turn to MP2 without improved equity.

MP2 could be attempting to iso the fish. Nevertheless calling $30 and assuming fish calls puts us at ~21% equity, solid with TPTK, an over, and BDNFD.

On a blank turn, I'd consider folding to sizable action in front.

Preflop we really want to raise an amount that will thin the field, and getting 3 callers didn't accomplish that. Having said that, it might be difficult to thin the field with everyone playing fairly deep.

I'm torn on the flop. Part of me wants to fold, simply because a fairly straightforward decent player is raising and wants to go for the fishies money. Is this really a worse Q with us still left to act behind him? Is he fooling around with a draw? Plus fish still has to react. On the other hand, we're still nowhere near pot commitment, the overall bet is a rather lol size of the pot, and will have position and hopefully have a clearer idea of what to do on the turn. I think I call and re-evalute the turn card / action.

I'm not raising cuz then all we are doing is building a huge pot with a mediocre hand, plus we could also blow fish out of the hand (we're fine with fish coming along).

GcluelessNLnoobG

His minraise to 30 sucks, unless he is trying to level you here, but I'm assuming that he doesn't wanna keep you out the hand and that he calls with most FD's or bluff raises to a proper amount with them, given that his passiveness OOP against you and that you could also raise/fold better hands on this board, I'd call and re-eval turn because our hand has improved fold equity on heart turns if V2 were to have a strong hand OTF and check, and still beat weaker Qx if the station were to have one and not fold.

Call and check turn. We are really deep so anything but calling here is bad.

To all of the posters advocating call, do you guys think it's important how we call? I'm assuming that a "seems decent TAG" is paying attention.

If we snap call, it may weight our range more heavily toward flush draws thus giving us a good chance to semi-bluff or bluff later on. If we call after making it look like we were contemplating a raise, it may look more like an overpair which could cause MP2 to play his hand more straightforwardly. If make a normal wait a couple of beats and call I think it keeps our range wider.

I think this may be a spot where how we call may influence MP2's play through the rest of a hand, amirite? (or am I thinking too much about this?)

i would call.
mp2's raise isn't really that much of an aggressive move. it's probably what he would have bet had it checked to him. a stronger hand wants to build a pot, and a weaker hand is more likely to make one of these "find out where I'm at" raises.
You're probably ahead of mp2, but let's see what the 1st guy does and what happens on the turn.

I think it is close between calling and folding here, and all the arguments I would have made have been made already. I think that reads matter. For example, if we know that both villains will play their hands honestly if we cold call, then we can call and fold to a big turn bet from V2 (and possibly try to get a value bet in if the turn checks to us). But if we expect V2 to keep betting with his whole range, then we have to decide now whether we're calling down on good runouts, and if not we should fold now.

Our backdoor draw is a one-card draw, so it should have next to no implied odds even though we are deep. In fact I think I'd rather not have the A here as it means that the villains are somewhat less likely to be drawing (but their ranges are still wide enough that there are plenty of other hands we beat possible).

i agree with a call, and other quote is really great point on how we call affecting the hand. many vil at live game would pay no attention but i really like that you brought up this discussion.

this is a really great thread.

the other factor is that a 3rd flush card will often slow down the betting (because no one else has the NF) and perhaps give us a free ticket to the river or the ability to bet the turn with relative impunity.

we don't have to commit to calling down all the way. i'd call/call/fold a good portion of the time UI if villain is firing big bets three times and is the type who doesn't normally do this without a real hand. folding the flop when he could easily have QJ/KQ seems way too mubsy

I call the raise.

In my mind, if he has a worse hand than us, if we cold call, he's not betting the turn with QJs


If we cold call his flop raise and still bombs the turn, we are done.


Call flop, and fold to turn bet from nitty guy.


Call flop and bet/fold turn if he checks.

I'm glad that the hand is as interesting as I thought it would be anyway to the turn.

Hero calls 30, sb calls the 30.

Pot 140 Turn Kh

Sb checks, mp2 checks, hero???

For what it's worth I thought for a bit then called on the flop, I didn't snap call.

Here is the full hand to make it easier.

Hi all,

I played this hand a while ago and thought it was pretty interesting, I think there should be good scope for discussion as post-flop I think people will differ on the best way to play.

Hero - (£1000) White 30yr old, has been running on god mode, had AA and KK twice in first hour getting paid everytime, has looked like I've been bullying the table due to getting good cards and hitting almost everytime, have been able to use my big stack to put pressure on the table but have not been playing laggy, always showing down good pf starting hands and made hands at showdown.

SB - (£400) No reads just sat down, doesn't give the impression of being that great a player.

MP1 - (300) big fish, i've made most of my money from this guy as anytime he hits a piece of the board he cannot fold. loose passive looks like he's got a lot of money as he must be in for about £800.

MP2 - (£600) mid 30's italian, decent enough player, plays a tag style, rarely bluffs apart from c-betting etc... haven't seen him get out of line, he's tried to avoid playing big pots against me, taking passive lines oop.

Pre-flop is pretty standard so I won't bother waiting

mp1 limps, mp2 limps, hero raises to 12 with AhQs (I think 12-15 is fine here anyone think different please say so, and why).

sb calls, mp1 calls, mp2 calls

Pot 50 Flop Qh 7h, 4c

SB bets 15, mp1 folds, mp2 raises to 30, hero calls 30, sb calls.

Pot 140 Turn kh

sb checks, mp2 checks, hero???

I only like a call because we have the A.

If we didn't have that we'd be in a marginal spot in what is soon to be a huge pot where we're not the aggressor.

Also some info on previous hands where MP2 raised postflop would help. Is he building a pot with a flush draw? Does he do this with a set? Does he limp call small pairs to set mine?

The hand is weird because you're the PF raiser and the pot is already 3-bet before action gets to you.

I bet 100, and that's the last money I'm putting in the pot unless I hit an A or Q that doesn't make a flush on the river.

****, I didn't see the flush already completed.

I just check the turn back and take my free card.

Yeah, check back.

We'll have position on the river and the hopefully the ability to make a decision then about whether to go for thin value.

It is worth pointing out that heart draws and KQ have both passed us, so the likelihood of getting called by a worse hand here is pretty low.

EDIT: And turning my hand into a bluff here is not too attractive because the hands we'd be trying to fold are turned 2 pair and sets. It's hard to get these hands to fold the turn even if they do think they're beat since the board could pair on the river.

Take advantage of position and check back, a value bet will not get a call from worse.

If checked again on a blank river, I'd look to thin value QX hands. Our check ott may help get a return otr.

+1 for checking back. I also think there's a possibility of a thin VB otr, but methinks that this opportunity will not arise in a PAHWM hand.