If we bet. Without a plan, then it i's on us. But mostly when we bet here. We need to be bet folding. This is only combo we are bet folding here. So letting it go can't be exploited. If he is going Ham on this hand. We have a lot of flushes and even sets that can call.

Time to fold.

How Mike Star can win at Poker playing this way just shows poker is alive and well. Flop is the easiest 3bet ever. Leading turn is so bad and makes zero sense. And lol at the people saying fold pre. Do any of you study at all?

LOL. The last person to say that to me was 6 betme.

As posted, I’d 3b flop (don’t need to go large), and as played, lead turn for $110. A couple of reasons:
1) Betting for value as there are only 3 or 4 legit FD combos in his range, and it appears this player might not raise those on the flop. There are 6 combos of 99/88, besides JdJx. I underweighted QQ.
2) Can’t risk a check through, again many action killing cards.

With his latest action, need to narrow toward those nutty combos in his range and fold.

based on your read of V

easy jam over his turn raise

My basic read of OP was that he didnt seem the type to raise a FD, but we have to change our reads when we get more info don't we? I have some lock down reads of lots of players in this room but this guy is a random who wandered in. I'm just trying to make an educated guess with this guy based on the few hands Ive seen.

What are the odds that someone who isnt aggro enough to raise with a FD would raise this turn without a actual flush? Obviously the 2 things contradict each other.

If he had a set or 2 pair he would just call wouldn't he? He might even fold those hands, right?

Lmao, what an honour Mike!

Also good job on creating yet another good thread/discussion. I am just sitting back for once and reflecting on the different arguments coming up.

In my experience what you see is what you usually get, and they are telling you the truth more often than not. So yeah, if the guy isnt aggro enough to raise this flop with some flushdraw combos- he is for sure not raising your turn donklead without a flush either at any real frequenzy here. I am folding the turn, and at the same time kicking myself for a bad donklead on this particular card/not 3 betting the flop.

In general peoples aggression tresholds is a red line through their whole game, and can be immensely helpful in regards of ranging people accurately.

When in a spot like this, where Im a little deepish, I get raised and I am almost certain Im ahead but can get outdrawn on the turn and be stuck in a bloated pot OOP not knowing what to do...I normally default to playing it a little safe and waiting for a safe turn card before trying to play a huge pot.

I can see how that isn't necessarily the best line. Its just something Ive defaulted to which is strange because I play pretty aggro in general.

Being in agreement that I shouldve reraised the flop, I dont see how the turn lead is bad at all. In fact, even during this discussion where some people hate it and a few like it, I havent heard anything to make me think its not the best line. Why would I check the turn when Im still like 80% sure Im ahead?

I didnt put him on a flush. I dont think he will fold to my $150 bet if he has 2 pair/set....but he might check back if I check....so why not lead?

Actually, you acknowledged that you had no reads on him, but based your "he's not the type to raise the flop with a flush draw" on demographics only.

That, and the fact that he hadnt played any big pots. He hadnt raised any flop or turn bets...things like that. He just didnt seem to be aggro at all in the short time I played with him.

Regarding why not donklead this in this spot:

Because for once, it sucks alot to be raised deep here OOP with a hand that is drawing dead to any flush and is vulnerable against a set to boat up.

It doesent suck as much if this is against a player you have developed lockdown reads on and thus knows close to 100 percent he isnt bombing you on the turn without a flush,then you can comfortably bet/fold and exploit his faceup nutted raisingrange: but you can level yourself against a player you dont have accurate reads on. Like, you dont know him well enough whether he is just blasting only with flushes on this turn, or if he is buttonclicking with his 2 pair, sets or even a worse straight. If he is doing the latter, he may get you to fold the best hand with this turn raise- wich obviously would be a disaster. My point is you dont know, and you are making this spot alot harder by leading on one of the most obvious cards that changes the nutz/equities in the hand alot.

Plus even if you dont put him on a flush/dont think he would raise flop with a flushdraw, he may still do it a some frequenzy (wich is unknown to you at this point), so you are making it harder for yourself by building a bigger pot deep OOP on when the flushdraw comes in.

this is why I don't like opening trash hands pre-flop to begin with UTG

I call these PLO hands
you flopped the best this hand can ever be but there are a million draws and you are actually a dog even thou you flopped the nuts.

now you are in no mans land facing aggression with no read and instinct is to protect your stack 1st

great hand for discussion, we've all been there at some point

Trash hand KJ suited, lmao. Playing deep its totally fine to have some suited combos of KJ mixed in to open from early pos.

Without better reads, I think the turn is a fold.

I'm in the raise flop camp and, as played, check turn, but I understand the bet on the turn. However, I think the plan should have been bet/fold vs. this guy. Most players are just not good enough and/or brave enough to raise turn w/o a flush. They pay as little as possible for another card with a set or two pair. If he's played this way with the naked Ad, two pair, or a set, more power to him, but we don't know enough about him to give him credit for it.

I open KJs utg but I am a squid so there u go

my personal opinion of 2/5 especially when I am playin oop and semi deep is to pile $ in on a wet board when I have a decent hand even more so when I have an aggro image and someone is raising my bet. Ima just bust out my shovel and put chips in the center.

Understand your thought process and agree.

At the same time, given the general poker population of which this opponent belongs, i.e. since we are essentially readless, aren’t most players checking back hands as strong as bottom / middle sets when the flush comes in OTT?
Are you classifying Hero’s hand as a two-streeter for value?

I'm honestly wondering how nit infested everyone's live games are who advocate for an immediate muck of KJss UTG. This is a fairly nutted range in my typical games.

I agree KJss UTG is fine for a raise at many tables, but you have to proceed cautiously on a lot of flops -- often with top pair as a K or J.

several players routinely limp/call AK AA KK QQ from any position

I prefer hands like 56 67 78 89 910 suited upfront

those that play AJ AQ A10 KQ KJ up front get stacked with regularity

Please don't let this divolve into a preflop range argument. KJs is fine at a lot of LLSNL tables. At others, it's suicide for many players. I've played at both. If you're 100% doing either thing, you probably aren't thnking about your ranges enough.

Please stop with the fish logic snowman.

That's like asking anyone else to stop breathing. Can't help it

sure thing


as I posted I would lead turn 160ish then consider folding if raised

later I posted I'm jamming over his raise

reason being

I travel a lot and usually am that V
no one expects a raise there from V without the flush that's why I would raise there(ie nly in deep games)
so from OP side jam