The thing is if villan was raising the flop with something like AK/KQ hes not calling an all in.

Why would he check the turn on a blank 3? This makes me assign the villans hand as a draw.

Hero should check to him, and let him bet his straight or flush which he is betting %100.

Then crai, and he might feel priced in with his straight, and will never fold a flush.

Lead shoving the river looks so nuttish hes not calling with much.

Either villain hit his hand if drawing or he didn't. If he did, shoving into him we ensure he calls for the max whereas if he hit a straight he may actually check back
If V has KQ/KJ he is never betting this river bit may make a "i knew it" donk call

Sorry, the c/r line you keep advocating in this thread is fps and loses too much value.

Why go for the c/r when V will call a shove w 100% of the hands he'd bet river with anyways?

The same can't be said for V's checkback range which does include straights and even 2p.

Add all that up and going for the checkraise just ins't optimal.

First of all villan is never calling a shove with 1 pair on that board.

Villan raised flop to $30, and checks the turn. If he hit his straight (78, q10 etc) he will bet the river especially when checked to.

The diamond on the river is so obvious, and if you shove you are ONLY getting action from flushes, and folding out everything else assuming villan has half a brain.

Turn action was check check, and if you check the river your line looks so weak villan will probably even make a value bet with TPTK, 2 pair ~. These are hands villan will never call a shove with. Live players do not tend to make hero calls when thier relative hands strength is close to 0.

River: pot $72

hero checks, villan bets $30, hero shoves.

Villan either calls or folds.

At this point villans calling range is wider now because of the increased pot odds, AND, he might not expect you to check the river with a nuttish hand. Thus, making your line look more like a bluff.

Exactly why OP botched the hand ott. He needs to bet turn. it's a slamdunk

x2

1/2 NL, Harrah's Chester.

History: I've been at the table for about 2 hours and have run my 300 buy-in up to about 475. Almost the whole table is over 55, and I have made almost all of my money opening a really wide range and taking pots down with c-bets. Have had a hand some of the time, but haven't really had to show anything down.

Villain: ~30 yo. black male. $200 to start hand. Haven't seen him do too much. Has raised a few hands pre, but no raises post flop. Doesn't seem like a thinking player, but isn't a total drooler, either. Probably views me as pretty reckless. I am 22 and wearing headphones.

Preflop: Hero is dealt K3
4 players limp, including V in middle position. SB completes. I don't think anyone will recommend anything other than a check here, so I'll skip to the flop.

Flop: (12) K69
SB checks. Hero bets $10, V raises to $30. All others fold. Hero calls.

Turn: (72) 3
Hero checks, V checks.
I checked with the intention of a CRAI here. I was almost 100% sure that he would bet, as it seems to me that a player like him is always betting when he raises flop. Guess not though. After reading the comments, I think I like the bet ~55 line, but that might just be results oriented.

River:: (72) T
Hero bets 40, V shoves for $120 more. Hero?

We have the 3rd nuts, has villan jizzed his pants yet? lol

He could've played the nfd this way, but you just can't fold this against an unknown at 1/2. I mean he should have a flush here (or some weird 87) all the time, but there are enough non-nut combos out there for you to call when you are getting 3:1 and not deepstacked.

I'm sure this hand ended in tears but I still like your line.

Easy puke call, can never really fold this without SOLID reads.

We must play different 1/2nl games.

The games in which I play in, the majority of 1/2nl villains I play against are never folding a made straight or 2p to our river overbet. They will say "why so much? why you bet so much? You got the flush didn't you... okay I call "

and there are "enough" villains who would call the river shove with one pair just to validate that they were "right" about us having the flush

But I guess in your games, all your villains are solid

We got the second nuts vs a LAG V.

There's no way you can soul read a LAG for the stone cold nuts when we got the second nuts. Its just impossible. The only way we can fold is if V shows AX prior to us having to call.

Anyways, this hand was an abortion the whole way through, I don't believe we've played one street correctly and that turn check is so criminal. For the love of god, when we turn monster out of position, we've got to stop going for the good ol c/r. And then WTF is with that weak ass river bet?

That's almost as bad as just checking river. The absolute lowest we should be betting on this river is pot. Betting almost 1/2 pot on this river loses all kinds of value since the river card hit a WIDE range of lesser hands that can pay us off.

Similarly, its not unheard of for baby flushes to just call...

That river bet is what i'd almost bet as a blocking bet against a baby flush if I had KQo and wanted a cheap showdown.

I dont want to sound cruel but....


This hand was misplayed on all 3 streets, turn and river are the worst.

The turn and river are so poor for all the reasons mentioned above by other people

You gotta bomb the river. I would at this point because overbets are fun and I hate the way I played the hand. Its my last gasp at making up for my mistake, particularly with the turn check.

As dgi said, try betting huge when you have a good hand with the body language of, "call this", or an offensive bet, and see what kind of results you get from calling stations. I promise you it will do you wonders and get you called down lighter.

I really like this PAHWM- can't go against the experienced responses if you're on 2+2 trying to improve...

Anyways, my thoughts:

1. Not to be pedantic, but we have the 3rd nuts here, not the 2nd.
2. The above is important because there are some FDs which were SFDs (e.g. Jx/ 7x), as well as the 87 which was obviously in his range. (I'm not saying we're not always paying 87 off.)
3. Obviously look to get it in on the flop and, if we can't, definitely the turn. I mean, TP + FD... does it get much better? And I don't mind how stupid my shove looks in this spot at any point before the river.
4. As played, shove river. There was a lengthy discussion in another post (last week?) as to whether or not to bomb a river and I (in the minority) didn't feel it was the right place to do it.
But that is really rare. We need to bomb the river to get max value and to set up for bluffs later on.
5. Fwiw, in the games I play (London), I wouldn't expect to get called by anything other than a flush (although all flushes will probably call)- but that's not the only reason for bombing the river.

What?

FISTPUMP CALL!

Hahaha true! I read and write too fast. Need to slow down. Its a leak for sure

I should of caught that sorry

When villain checks back the turn, he either has a mediocre hand or on a draw. The draws all got there. Let's target maximum value from the drawing hands and forget about the mediocre hands because most mediocre hands will probably even be 50/50 about calling a small bet. And we lose so much value by putting out a small bet to target the mediocre hands only to have straight / baby flushes just call in fear of bigger hands (but flushes are never folding to any bet, and most straights aren't either).

Way closer to a puke call, IMO. Most players who don't have the nuts here will simply call this river for fear we have the nuts.

hence the check raise/ get it in

1/2 NL, Harrah's Chester.

History: I've been at the table for about 2 hours and have run my 300 buy-in up to about 475. Almost the whole table is over 55, and I have made almost all of my money opening a really wide range and taking pots down with c-bets. Have had a hand some of the time, but haven't really had to show anything down.

Villain: ~30 yo. black male. $200 to start hand. Haven't seen him do too much. Has raised a few hands pre, but no raises post flop. Doesn't seem like a thinking player, but isn't a total drooler, either. Probably views me as pretty reckless. I am 22 and wearing headphones.

Preflop: Hero is dealt K3
4 players limp, including V in middle position. SB completes. I don't think anyone will recommend anything other than a check here, so I'll skip to the flop.

Flop: (12) K69
SB checks. Hero bets $10, V raises to $30. All others fold. Hero calls.

Turn: (72) 3
Hero checks, V checks.
I checked with the intention of a CRAI here. I was almost 100% sure that he would bet, as it seems to me that a player like him is always betting when he raises flop. Guess not though. After reading the comments, I think I like the bet ~55 line, but that might just be results oriented.

River:: (72) T
Hero bets 40, V shoves for $120 more. Hero calls. V shows A5

lol villains never fold FDraws when they raise them. Donking the turn would have just caused the inevitable, but either way you need to get more money in this pot asap.

strong 2p +2ndfd = stack city. Villain will check back tpgk everytime and we miss value- blame bad variance if he has a rare set..

It'd be interesting to see what would have happened if we shoved the flop- whether ornot villain calls... Doubt he can fold the NFD

He told me (take that for what it's worth) that he was folding turn if I bet. I'm pretty sure he was folding flop, too. Do we want to enable him to fold a smaller FD on the flop though? Seems like thats how we make most of our money with this hand, which is partially why I flatted the flop.

I check this flop out of position with two players behind. First because with a K and weak kicker I want to control the pot size until I actually make my hand. I also want to gain information on the strength of the hands of the two players behind. Two checks behind and I know my hand is probably good. Also by giving a free card here I disguise my hand and don't kill the action. If you lead out and the table folds you have lost a lot of value.

Clearly you have not made this move often. A huge bet like this gets called way more often than you think. Bets like this against v will confuse him. If he has 2 pair or better and is confused his money is going in.

EXACTLY! Almost never is aggression answered by more aggression by 1/2 fish. If you are playing at a table where this is a fistpump call then it is a super rare aggressive LLSNL game.

No NO NO F***ING NO!!!!!!

FFS, we make the most money on this hand by betting turn because there is a WHOLE RANGE OF HANDS THAT CAN FREAKING CALL US THAT WE CRUSH

similarly, there are a whole range of hands (like lesser flush draws) that will call a turn bet but fold when they whiff river.

Look, you've got to give your villains more opportunities to make mistakes. Villains at this level will call the most horrendous bets on the most horrendous draws. I know villains that will call turn 2/3 pot size bets on gut shots because they can "feel" it coming. This happens all the time. at this limit.

+1, cannot state this enough

look at the below link. Cliffnotes: V calls $1K overbet with trips on a Flush, Straight, and Paired board on river. V's level themselves into making all sorts of horrific calls all the time

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/17...-leak-1146074/

Disagree.

Sure, there is a decent percentage of players that will ONLY shove with the nuts here. I can agree with that statement however...

There are just so many players that would shove with ANY flush because they are chasing the flush, hit the flush, and gosh darn it, a flush is a great hand so lets get it in

Imo, 75% of the LLSNL population are Level I players that simply just don't care what you have or what you are repping. Out of that 75% i'd say 50% would shove any flush OTT of our bet.

So basically, there is a sizeable enough pool of donks to where I'd feel okay here with 2nd nuts.

When making the river overbet, whats the best way to go about it?

Do you think a long time before shipping, do you snap ship or normal pause then ship? Do you vocally say all in, laugh, talk to the villain while he thinks? Do you just push your chips in quietly and stare at a spot and shuffle chips?

Does this even matter?