Villian can also have a flushdraw on the flop and decided not to cbet incase you would blow his hand off with a check/raise,

The flop is: KJ10

I'm just struggling to see a flush draw that he wouldn't bet the flop with. Isn't AJ betting flop?

I don't see villain raising $16 pre with A9/ J9/ 67/ 56etc...

Your preflop flatting range smacks this flop. Some people do check back here with a flush draw because they don't want to face a check/raise from you.
If you do not put the villian on a flushdraw, then you still have the nuts on the turn. I doubt any competent player will check back the flop with a set/2pair.

Personally I would open the pot in LP with A9s, A5s, 67s, etc etc

You still have to try and extract some value here. If he's so weak he's going to fold to our bets on any street, we weren't ever going to get enough value to make all this overthinking justified. We bet and hope he has enough to call. We show our skill by sizing our bets optimally.

I have to agree with this. I would open with the suited connectors especially (obviously not every time but 35-40% of the time). So I think it's entirely possible he holds this - although the $16 bet p/f sort of throws this idea off a bit. It's still possible though.

I just read a similar preflop situation in Professional No Limit Holdem Volume 1 and they recommend a min raise. Their reasoning applies about the same I think.

I'm thinking most may not likey but that's what makes discussion good. Fire away homies.

Game: 1/1/2 NLHE [$1 on BU, $1 in SB, $2 in BB] w/ a mandatory $4 bring in [you have to make it $4 minimum to be the first in]

Hero is in BB [$200]. This is the third orbit at the table. The only hand I have played was limping 66 UTG+1 and c/fing a broadway heavy flop that was six handed.

Villain is in HJ [$800] LAG/TAG, talkative, thinking player. I can infer from table talk between him and his buddy at the table that he is solid with a decent understanding of poker [bluffing, equity, pot odds, cbetting etc.] I have seen both him and his buddy value betting semi light against weaker spots at the table. I infer that him, his friend, and myself are the best players at the table. I feel villain views me as stronger than other players at the table as well.

Preflop: Hero is dealt AQ in the BB. It's folded to Villain in the HJ and he makes it $16 to go.

Hero Calls $16.

Flop [$30]: KJ10

Hero[$184] checks. Villain[$Mad Scrill] checks somewhat quickly...

Turn [$30] KJ108

Hero[$184] Checks. Villain[$Cash Money Hoes] Bets $15. Hero?

Min raising preflop?

r/f, b/f river

I think your arguments for checkraising the turn are BETTER arguments for checkraising the flop. Because this flop has hit villains range or his perceived range pretty hard, he should be C-betting here 90% of the time.

If he has a strong hand (i.e. set, etc), he will C-bet and we can raise/get it in. Same thing would probably happen if we lead instead of check raise.

If he has a flush draw (i.e AJ) or even a straight draw i.e. QQ, if we lead, he can flat and draw relatively cheaply - depending on our lead. If we check, he will most likely bet and we can charge him significantly.

If he has garbage or an underpair, if we lead, he will fold a vast majority of the time. However, if we check the flop, he will often C-bet since the flop hits his perceived range, and he will fold to our check raise, but we garner extra money from his C-bet by checking instead of leading.

Overall, I think the money we pick up from C-bets outweighs the money we pick up by leading weakly and getting him to raise. Thus, I think that check raising is the better line OTF, even though it didn't work out this time.

On the turn, I agree with others that you must bet for value. In addition, a check-raise can get you in big trouble if villain did indeed check back a flush draw OTF.

sizing?

I like your analysis for check raising flop. Will need to think about it a bit more.

I may be in the minority here with the thought that he never has a flopped flush draw on the flop given the preflop and postflop actions. At the time of the hand I was 100% confident he never had a turned flush here.

rly? im stacking off for 100bb. he can't put us on a flush very often so he should be going all-in with top two and sets, no?

still prefer to lead 100% of the time here, but as-played i c/r $50, shove non- rivers. and i'm calling a shove overtop OTT

I agree. I guess you could maybe r/f turn but im not. I don't think stack sizes work for raising turn bet folding river. If you bet river you are pretty much AI.

Oh crap yeah I just saw the 800 and thought you covered.

55, and I guess its r/c, shove

a general comment on these types of spots... in 1/2, with how loose and passive (and usually multi-way) the game plays, in general you need to start building pots early with your good hands with an eye on getting stacks in. in many cases this means leading from OOP rather than risking a check back, and generally making sure you don't miss a street of value.

and in limped pots, don't be afraid to overbet the pot OTF with your good made hands. most people don't know about or look at pot size. if it's limped 5-way and the pot's $10 and i flop a set, even on the driest of flops i'm often betting $12-15 instead of $8 or $10. if you get 2 callers, that can make the difference between getting stacks in or not.

/derail

Funny you mention overbetting dry flops. I was in this exact situation the other day and made decent money but after the hand thought, wow, I might have gotten stacks if I would have bet a little over pot on the flop... I think it is def. good advice. No limit cash games is not about slowplaying monsties [which most recreational players think]. It is about value betting your hands well.

What do you think his raising range vs a turn lead would be?

I kinda we'd force him to flat a lot of backdoor draws and worse value hands that he might bet if we double check: failed c/r flop and lead turn when diamond hits do rep a flush here (among a lot of other things, but they would fold to a raise, meaning he will prob be forced to flat 2prs etc as well). So leading could value cut us.

I think c/r'ing basically forces him to bet the turn most of the time, anything he checks back at this point probably wouldn't call a turn bet anyway and definitely not turn+river, so value missed we'd get OTR anyway aside from the handful of times the flush gets there.

Also I think he'd probably expect us to lead a flush here so he can probably call a c/r pretty light (It depends WTF he checks back OTF here, but I can see him going well, I checked back the flop here and then bet vs a double check, so maybe he thinks I'm really weak etc.)

Maybe I'm overthinking it.

+1000 to overbetting on limped pots when we have a monster hand. Most fish don't understand pot sizes and overbetting $15 in a $10 pot will most of the time go unnoticed.

A seriously underutilized tool in the thinking player's arsenal.

3b or call pre w/e.

donk flop

good god lead the turn

Why is leading turn better than c/raising in this specific scenario?

Leaving town soon to see a girlie and hopefully get some tail. I will be back late Sunday night to do final hand update. Have a good one.

Game: 1/1/2 NLHE [$1 on BU, $1 in SB, $2 in BB] w/ a mandatory $4 bring in [you have to make it $4 minimum to be the first in]

Hero is in BB [$200]. This is the third orbit at the table. The only hand I have played was limping 66 UTG+1 and c/fing a broadway heavy flop that was six handed.

Villain is in HJ [$800] LAG/TAG, talkative, thinking player. I can infer from table talk between him and his buddy at the table that he is solid with a decent understanding of poker [bluffing, equity, pot odds, cbetting etc.] I have seen both him and his buddy value betting semi light against weaker spots at the table. I infer that him, his friend, and myself are the best players at the table. I feel villain views me as stronger than other players at the table as well.

Preflop: Hero is dealt AQ in the BB. It's folded to Villain in the HJ and he makes it $16 to go.

Hero Calls $16.

Flop [$30]: KJ10

Hero[$184] checks. Villain[$Mad Scrill] checks somewhat quickly...

Turn [$30] KJ108

Hero[$184] Checks. Villain[$Cash Money Hoes] Bets $15.

Hero[$184] raises to $58. Villain thinks for about 30 seconds and calls.

River[$146] KJ1086

Hero[126]?

jam

This entire hand shows the importance of building the pot on the flop and avoiding FPS.

At this point, I don't think we can get stacks in without villain's cooperation, which would cause me to reevaluate his hand range - not that it would matter.

I think the most villain will call here is $50 and you'll be lucky to get that much. OTOH, since part of our range for the c/r includes combo draws against a blind steal, I might very well shove and hope it looks like a bluff.

yup

That's what was recommended, yes. It seemed very odd to me, but the idea was to make the pot large enough to commit with top pair while keeping AJ, AT and KQ in he hand. The hand is on page 131, first example hand of "REM in Action." If anyone can explain why they're wrong and the people in this thread are right, I'd love to hear it, though that might deserve its own thread.