The more I think about a fold is not a bad play here either. We have middle pair, no kicker, out of position with 5 players behind. If I call and get raised I hate it. If I hit my flush, I am still not in love with my 9 high.

I think raise is clearly the worst play. This flop most likely hit 2 or 3 other players. I don't want to build a big pot with my mediocre hand. I think there is little fold equity here with so many players.

So call and fold are pretty even. I will say call > fold > raise. But if I call and get raised on the flop I'm outta there quick.

IMO, raise is horrible because said player will likely see 2/5 as a kiddy table and 3-bet super light.

Without much information, I don't mind being passive with the option to dump the hand with so many players behind yet to act.

This is a really crappy situation and I hate getting stuck in situations with hands i'd never play. I would have folded this hand from the small blind tbh

My thoughts were:

I have too much equity to fold so I can't fold. THat leaves raising or calling.

If I 3-bet, then I inflate a pot that likely hit a lot of villains' ranges and oh, by the way i'm out of position for the next two streets (remember I still have 4 villains behind me)

Other problem with 3-betting is that all pot control is 100% lost as the pot will be roughly 40bb - 70bb+ depending on how many callers I get. Similarly, if I 3-bet and get 4betted life just sucks. The thought of raise folding in this spot makes me physically ill since there are a LOT of hands that can 4bet me that I have too much equity against to fold to!!! But at the same time 5bet shoving in this spot to a 4bet makes me sick as well because at this point I really am only $5 vested and the thought of shipping $600 on a pair + marginal flush draw in a 7-way pot just seems overly spewy and at best has got to be borderline -EV / 0 EV.

The flush draw is SUPER OBVIOUS and I seriously doubt i'm folding out KT-KQ because even Stevie Wonder can see the flush draw. If I 3-bet the first thought in any competent villain's mind will be that I'm on a flush draw and they will flat Kx, 9x, TT (can't see anyone having JJ or QQ given preflop limp fest). If I brick turn, then the pot is big enough such that I won't have proper implied odds to call and similarly V can bet big enough such that its incorrect for me to call with both direct and implied odds.

So, that leaves calling and reevaluating remaining flop action and turn.

My plan was to call and see how the remaining action went. If I called and someone else raised and someone else reraised I was more than prepared to fold. I was willing to tolerate one raise and reevaluate turn.

Part of my philosophy is that the better poker player wants to keep as many options open as possible while also getting as much information as possible prior to acting. By calling, I'm making the best out of a horrible situation. I'm pot controlling, keeping my range wide, and preserving my equity, and allowing myself room to manuever on later streets as well as jump ship if action gets too heavy.

So I call and to my surprise and relief, everyone else folds.

Its just me and Villain and I have position

Turn($85) 6

V bets $45, Hero ???

But are you really? How would you play K9, K7, 97, 8T, JT:heart, 77, 99 in this spot? Yes the flush is obvious, but given you were in the big blind your range vs. observant opponents is ATC so despite your image this is one spot where you can rep practically all made hands (except KK obviously). I think by flatting you are narrowing your range in this spot to mostly draws and marginal made hands not widening it.

Flop: I would raise since we are flipping TP and ahead of a NFD. If we end up stacking off 1v1 I'd be cool with it. I don't want this going multiway so if I get called or re-raised by someone else I'm shutting down.


Turn:Chasing one draw but acting like you hit another is always fun.

Raise that 6

Very this. A raise reps the 2-pair combos and 77/99 perfectly.

AP, I guess that we can rep that the 6 completed a straight, but would villain believe we flatted with a gutshot? Maybe if it was FD+ gutshot, but we'd be repping super narrow if we raise here. I guess we're committed to just calling at this point, which doesn't excite me, but I don't really see how we can fold.

T8 isn't a gutshot.

Turn:

Line 1. Ugh. Against this V, I call and hope to get to show down. Re-evaluate on river.

Line 2. Although I probably don't have big enough balls to do this, I suppose a good line would be to raise to 145 now that we are heads up and he's a more tricky 5/10 playa (He could be betting a better draw). We can rep a lot of hands. It turns our hand into a semi-bluff and gives us more information on what V is holding. It could also freeze the river action causing him to check the river.

Not exactly true, because we might simply be viewed a fish of a lower stake in villain's eyes.

LLSNL players peel off a wide range of garbage especially in a limped pot, and such view is generally true in most games.

I can see raising as merit to clear few outs behind us, but if villain + another player flat, our hand can very likely be drawing dead.

Furthermore if everyone folds behind us and villain 3-bet, we pretty much have to shove in HU.

So if you're comfortable playing for stack, and understand the odds is slim if the hand becomes 3-handed, in this situation, then yes you could raise.

I personally don't find this spot worth playing for my stack or worth putting good amount of chips in the middle to be drawing dead.

Against a typical 2/5 players, I would be raising in this spot all day and be relatively comfortable with folding, because even though my range doesn't make much sense to have a lot of strong hands, the line does look strong in non-observant players' eyes.

Against this player, I will give him benefit of the doubt that I probably don't have much FE and I think I am content with a small pot and flat here.

This. The only way we can raise is if we commit to one of two lines.
#1 raise / fold
#2 raise/ shove

We have to much equity for #1 and not enough equity for #2.

And another very important reason why I elected to call was #3 pot control. I don't think we in LLSNL apply this concept enough. Too often we are all like "raise so you can get all-in" when many times our hand just isn't big enough to want to get all in. If we raise flop then turn is a 100% shove, a shove that will have almost no FE if we end up multiway because the pot would be so big (remember I still have 4 players behind me).

To be clear, I think all options have pros and cons, yes a raise will thin the field to 1-2 V's But we have to think beyond that and that leads to severe consequences if we are raised because of my points #1 and #2 and #3.

As for narrowing my range, I'm not so sure I agree with that. In a gigantic multiway pot a lot of strong made hands can elect to just peel one card off and wait for a non flush turn since FD equity drops in half. My range is wide enough that I still can tell any story I like on turn. In this situation it is my TURN action in combination with my flop action that will define my range. I will agree that you can take sets out of my range, but my range still has Kx and two pair combos and a bazillion FD + pair or FD + SD combos. Basically my range is still big enough to maneuver on later streets which is possible BECAUSE I pot controlled flop.

I know normally a FD + pair combo on flop is a raise, but I don't think so in this situation due to the points I mention above

We will agree to disagree

The reverse implied odds in this hand are beyond disgusting. Its either a flat or fold the flop for me, and i personally would lean towards a fold in most cases...but still raise in others. Depends on what i think of the rest of the table.

It almost sounds like you're raising so you have a reason to fold to 3-bet.

What would you do if another player behind flat and villain flat?

Or variety of other scenarios that result with 3 players?

I think the two simplest scenarios are that everyone fold and that everyone fold behind and original villain 3-bet.

Rest are messier than I like.

^ i changed my answer to flat or fold rather than raise or fold after looking back at things. Which isnt good, cause i wouldnt exactly be able to go back and change my decision if i was in the hand, now would i? Lol

Good PAHWM.

The villain's on the flop is a made hand of some sort. As said above, he's playing at the kiddie table in his mind for pocket change. If he wanted to bully with air, he'd c/r the flop. At this point, he's ahead. If he give him Kx, 99 or 77, we're not in bad shape, only a 46/54 underdog. If he has a FD, we hold 2 of his outs and are ahead.

We have two issues, though. If we start playing for stacks by raising, we really don't have good enough odds. We raise to like 80, everyone else folds and on the turn, he never pays us off when we hit. He punishes us if we miss. We call and the odds are good we're stuck in a MW pot on the turn.

Therefore I like an unconventional play, which is very villain specific. We shove. If called, we are betting 495 to win 530. We need just a little FE from the villain to make the shove +EV. Everyone else other than a set folds and even if there is a set lurking, the villain is folding if someone calls. We see our two cards. Most likely, the villain calls and we're racing because he isn't playing with scared money. Even you lose, he's going to being willing to give you a shot at your money back because of your loose play.

As played, you call and our equity goes into the toilet on the turn. Your range to him has the 6 as a blank except if you have exactly T8 and he thinks you're dumb enough to chase a SD in a 7 way pot with the FD showing. You have no FE now and he bets enough to make the call bad. Just fold now.

Going to guess that you called this, then the hits on the river. Did you get c/r'ed?

Wow venice haz ballz.

Umm...it's too much ballz for me. Heh.

You are never invited to my game, you maniac you.

raise flop to win the dead money. calling turns our hand face up pretty much as a weak made hand/draw. there won't be many kings in our range since we should be folding most Kx here. also, calling invites more people behind us to call.

because our hand is transparent villain can easily own us pretty good by 3 barrelling most turns and rivers. he can go for thin value with Kx or bet turn, bomb any river river with a flush draw. either way we're losing this pot or not getting paid/value owning ourselves when we hit a 9 or heart.

I just don't see how we can't raise here.
We put in a pretty hefty raise to get out the other flush draws. Other than sets(kk highly discounted, 99 highly discounted) the only time we would be worried about raising this flop is if Kx calls and a higher flush draw. Even ****** llsnlers usually won't call big 3b with naked flush draws. (If they are calling with naked flushdraw then they are droolers and you should know that = raising a mistake).
We're 50.1% against Kx no heart.
44.2% against Kx with a heart.
60.5% against Ax(lower than 9) 52% against Ax(higher than 9)
To think we have no fold equity here is really silly. In a MW 3b pot on this flop it's going to be hard for anyone else to call unless they are closing the action. Also hard to call with Kx unless it's a really strong K(AK KQ).
To anyone that thinks "raising = a draw", I strongly disagree. Majority of the llsnlers are not raising their draws here, they also aren't going to be putting you on a draw, they will be thinking "Oh there is a flush draw out there, he's protecting his set or 2p - My KT is not a very good hand!".

Goes without saying I respect you Venice, but I think you are forgetting a couple of things. #1 We are 3rd to act with 4 players behind us in a 7-way pot, I don't think you can specifically "target" villain under these circumstances.

#2, we have $600 not $500 and there are 4 players behind that cover. Pot is $50 ish when action gets to us so shoving $600 to win $50 is just too aggressive for me.


Anyways, the interesting thing about this hand is I guess we can see how many different styles there are for playing. I've given my reasons for not raising flop and acknowledge the pros and cons for raising flop so I'm not going to rehash that. I think up to this point we've all made our cases for the flop

My thoughts:

V's bet of $45 in a $85 pot just doesn't seem that strong to me.

On the flop, my range for villain included: sets, two pair, flush draw, straight draws, and Kx type hands. Villain posted (at this casino you have to post your first hand) so his range is ATC but at the same time he bet out first so he has to have something right?.

However, when I call, Villain has to see my range as a flush draw or maybe KT-KQ or a straight draw.

If V had a set or two pair he would bet more on the turn. I mean, $45 into a $85 pot is giving me about 3:1 odds. In my mind, he'd want to charge more for a flush draw or even better, milk my KT-KQ. So, when he bets $45 that seems weak to me allowing me to take sets, two pair, and strong Kings out of his range.

If I call the $45 that would be in line with a flush draw and come river any play i'd make would have ZERO fold equity. So his $45 bet gives me the opportunity to better define my story and rep a better hand.

So, I raise.

My thoughts were that I could fold out Kx type hands while taking control of the pot. Also, by raising I'm basically declaring I have a real hand with real strength. I think V can't put me on a FD because a FD would have most likely raised flop and if anything my raise is one of those "get the flush draw out" sorta raises that LLSNL are very fond of and since my image is that of unknown rec player he's got to see it that way. Most rec players are never raising in this spot without a strong hand. Lastly, the turn raise gives me fold equity on river and if he calls I have no choice but to shove river to continue telling my story and i'm more than comfortable doing that.

Soooo....

I make it $150

V kinda sits up a bit in his chair and I can tell he wasn't expecting me to raise. He doesn't tank per say, but he does take a second before calling.

River($385) 5

V insta bets $250, Hero????

I would fold on the flop. Not a good situation, 5 player left to act! only cost you 1BB. Find a better spot to play and gather some info on this new guy. As played, the call turned out great for you. This is a great spot (and turn card) to semi-bluff. Raise to $125, it doesn't really matter what he thinks you have (you don't know him and he doesn't know you). This raise puts his stack on the line. It's a raise/fold spot. If he shoves fold, if he calls you get to bluff the river or v-bet. It's really turning into a nice situation.

Wow, good bet on his part. I call, lets see what he has and how he plays.

Well, you did exactly what I was trying to avoid, play a big pot street by street vs a guy who may view 2/5 as pocket change.

Good luck, hate river no matter what.

Oops, didn't see that river completes one card straight.

If villain buys the story that you have a strong made hand with turn raise, and I am thinking he did, then river is a straight up shove for value.