Btw, this happened to me yesterday. I 3bet AQs from the BB against the CO, the CO 4bet an amount close to half of my 160BB stack, I ended up folding.

I don't like folding AQs pre.

But again, at the time of 3betting it was part of a range that makes the most doing so. Once facing another bet, everything has changed and there are new variables to consider. It doesn’t mean it wasn’t a sound 3b at the time and things like ‘I don’t like folding AQs pre’ are emotional nonsense. Perhaps AQs just becomes the top of your 3b fold range or some other range depending on how you’re built.

hmmm...

Being upset about folding AQs has nothing to do with emotions.

It's about wanting to realize your equity. It's also about having a plan and revaluating that plan if it leads you to actions that are not part of the plan.

Let me give another example. One of the things poker books emphasize is that you want to be bluffing with your low equity hands, not the hands that have decent equity. So for example, if you have an OESD with 31% equity, it's wrong to raise with it, because you sacrifice your equity if you get shoved on. Better to raise a gutter or a hand with blockers with 10-15% equity that you don't mind folding to further pressure. The same principle applies here IMO.

I don't want to be sacrificing AQs or QQ equity without seeing the flop. Raising it as value hand has a specific meaning. It means that I am ahead of my opponent's range and I intend to go a long way with it. If I end up folding that hand a lot, then it's worth reevaluating the way I play it.

In that particular AQs hand, my conclusion after playing with that guy a little longer was that his PFR range was narrower than I thought, so I should have been value AND bluff 3betting a narrower range.

As far as 4betting QQ goes, i stick with what I said before. I can possibly accept that we exploitatively fold as a price of doing business, but all the same, there's something off if I am seeing the flop with KQs 100% of the times and only, say, 90% of the times with QQ.

AQs is a mandatory 3b BB vs CO on any table unless dude is opening 3% of hands, getting 4b and having to fold has nothing to do with the hand. If you had JJ there you would have folded too so by that logic we should reconsider 3-betting JJ vs a CO open, and it’s completely absurd to flat JJ vs a CO open almost always unless V is a complete rock

Poker books are extremely outdated. Those concepts are somewhat relevant as maybe thinking exercises but other than that not very useful.

As Amana said taking the highest EV line at the time is what matters, what actually happens after that shouldnt affect the decision point. Being upset with folding AQs is emotional nonsense there; it’s quite trivial. Not liking to fold it? You should be thankful and mucking happily vs V’s ******ed line

May we please get back on course

I’m not here for AQs 3b/fold BBvCo strat talk

Not it’s not. EV first. Equity realization is just the relationship between hand equity and EV anyway, so it’s just more nonsense. Matter of fact stuff, not just being critical to pisz you off.

Yea come on OP, did you shove 1500 in his eye, stand up, and show him an 8? That’s what I would’ve done.

Fix your post

Gross

Talking about realizing your equity is nonsense unless you want to compare the decision tree of every possible permutation and frequency. For all you know, you'll realize your equity with AQs over every possible occurrence better as a 3! than a flat. Just cuz you had to fold facing a 4b doesn't mean it wasn't the right choice as Amana said previously.

That makes sense cuz I’ve always assumed you were here for the highly touted ‘1-2 Manifesto’.

Any timing read on the turn bet? The bet did ramp up in absolute dollars but not so much relative to the pot...still trying to figure this out

It was relatively quick but not like “strong bet is weak” kind of timing. Nothing really out of the ordinary.

Ok let’s move it along, final river action

Hero ($1800), HJ: Early 30's white male reg, probably seen as TAG-ish, have played with V in this hand many times so we have some history, though I don't remember any huge pots of note

V (Covers, barely), button: 40's white male reg, generally plays pretty straightforward, solid overall, also TAG-ish, probably playing something like 15-20% PFR, 25% VPIP, 3-5% 3b

Hero dealt 88 in HJ

UTG limps, hero $20, V 3b button $65, limper calls, I call. Preflop is standard so not much decision-making here.

Flop ($197): KQ8

Limper checks, H checks, V quickly bets $135. Limper quickly folds. H calls.

Turn ($467): A

H checks. V bets $350. H calls

River ($1167): 3

H checks. V takes about 10 seconds and shoves $1250. Call or fold?

You’re funny you say funny joke

Why I laugh

Folding. It’s really hard if he’s doing this with AK in addition to AA-QQ.

hmmm, I'm a station but I was thinking already that I'm more likely to call a shove than a smaller bet.

my original pov was that I didn't think this guy was capable of shoving without a hand better than 88 so I think I'm still folding but irl, I ****ing hate folding sets so .... meh I'm far more likely to station I think

He has to be a pretty deep thinker to actually range you here. Every player is going to value bet aces up.

I call cuz it's wj's money.

For real he reps AA KK JT, this is never AK. I think shove is so suspicious. I prob call, 10 sec is not enough time to consider what hands you get value from with what sizing.

And force him to show you his A4hh, dude has balls

The shove makes me want to call more, what is he targeting with such a large sizing

Well, if he has AA/KK, he is targeting a lot of two pair+ hands: QQ/88/AK/AQ/KQ... A shove makes me want to fold more compared to a smaller bet.

I don't know if I would actually fold, though.

I think the river is a pretty easy exploitative fold relative to the population tendencies at this stackdepth. Just the fact alone that a non out of line reg wants to stackoff $1800 in this pot on this runout, makes me folding. I just think the range we are up against are way to strong, and i think we are burning money if we felt almost 400 blinds here.

A non out of line tight reg simply doesent have enough bluffs/thin value shoves here for us to do anything other than fold in my opinion.

It’s actually the correct play from the V with anything less than the nuts here to shove I think. Only JTs can value bet confidently. I wouldn’t expect him to have any bluffs left, but the range advantage is sufficient for him as we can only have 88/QQ at the top and he can have anything.

Based on that, I suppose I’m stationing off my stack here on combo count. He has 9 overpairs against some AQs and 9 AK. We get 2-1.

In order for this to be a call, V would have to be 3b basically all the time. AK is the only value hand he has that we beat, and he probably doesn't shove it in this spot 100%, so he needs more bluffs in his range to make up for it. Requiring that V have more bluffs available means he needs to start out the hand with many more hands.

Easy fold.

If he showed you a bluff, then we know how to read him next time.