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PAHWM 2/5 200bb deep vs good opponent PAHWM 2/5 200bb deep vs good opponent

09-12-2012 , 10:28 AM
The game is eight-handed 2/5 no limit, with a wild high-variance style. I have a bad, maniacal image. I have been opening and raising a lot. I have recently stopped playing so many hands in an attempt to tap the brakes/stop spew-mode. (I realize this is becoming a pattern for me, and I really need to stop playing so many hands)

Villain is mid-twenties, tall, gym rat, pro hustler, quite smart, and quite confident. He is, or has been involved in myriad gambling activities. He is a patient & skilled hold 'em player.

We have some history in the last year. For example, two days before this game, we were in a hand where I turned flopped trips into a bluff on the river. He replayed the hand in his head, correctly decided that my story didn't make sense, and called my all-in. The pot was ~$3000. This guy has owned me pretty hard in most of our match ups.

PRE-FLOP
Button ($500) straddles for $10
SB ($700) calls $10
BB Villain ($950) raises to $50 -- he plays position well, so he must be strong here
UTG fold
UTG+1 fold
MP fold
HJ ($1200) Hero raises to $135
CO ($1300)

What does my range look like here?
PAHWM 2/5 200bb deep vs good opponent Quote
09-12-2012 , 10:34 AM
villain will flat you here with his entire range especially with your image.
PAHWM 2/5 200bb deep vs good opponent Quote
09-12-2012 , 10:38 AM
Good point, ozmosis313. What range do you put on MY hand?
PAHWM 2/5 200bb deep vs good opponent Quote
09-12-2012 , 11:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach McGuirk
Good point, ozmosis313. What range do you put on MY hand?
Well, the only information we have is that your image is "bad and maniacal" and that effective stacks are ~200bb. When I think of bad maniacs I think they can 3bet with almost ATC and they aren't paying attention to position (and that a good player opened from the BB signalling strength).

Obviously you have shown us that you are aware that this is a good player, and therefore is showing strength with his raise from the BB. What does he think of you? What kind of hands have you 3bet with in the past that he has seen? Very difficult to assign you a range with no information other than what you gave. If I had to guess I'm putting your range somewhere along the lines of any pocket pair, suited connectors, broadway cards. Very wide.
PAHWM 2/5 200bb deep vs good opponent Quote
09-12-2012 , 11:23 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ozmosis313
villain will flat you here with his entire range especially with your image.
Huh? you really think he's going to flat with ATs if he chose to open that hand from the BB? I would tend to think that Villain would 4bet or fold most of the time.

As for your range... AJo+, 77+, some suited and unsuited broadways, maybe some other random air? Basically the opening range of a TAG from middle to late position. Can't really be sure since I haven't been sitting at the table watching you all night so it's hard to judge how loose you were playing.

FWIW, my 3betting range in this spot would be something like QQ+, AKo, AKs, and a small portion of other random Axs and Kxs hands. If I view villain as good the % of bluffs goes down with no callers in between.
PAHWM 2/5 200bb deep vs good opponent Quote
09-12-2012 , 11:34 AM
At that point, my 3bets hands did not get showed at all. I had shown a couple of bluffs, FWIW.

Yeah, I guess assigning me a range pre is too hard?

PRE-FLOP
Button ($500) straddles for $10
SB ($700) calls $10
BB Villain ($950) raises to $50 -- he plays position well, so he must be strong here
UTG fold
UTG+1 fold
MP fold
HJ ($1200) Hero raises to $135 with AA
CO ($1300) folds

Villain flats.

FLOP ($290)
Q69
Villain ($815) checks
Hero?
PAHWM 2/5 200bb deep vs good opponent Quote
09-12-2012 , 11:36 AM
You need to spend a lot less time worrying about what range a good villain puts you on and a lot more time on the basics of the game. You're trying to ask a level 3 question when it is clear you haven't even understood level 2 yet. Try to walk before you run.
PAHWM 2/5 200bb deep vs good opponent Quote
09-12-2012 , 11:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThaNEWPr0fess0r
FWIW, my 3betting range in this spot would be something like QQ+, AKo, AKs, and a small portion of other random Axs and Kxs hands. If I view villain as good the % of bluffs goes down with no callers in between.

At that point, I was trying to play pretty much just like this.
PAHWM 2/5 200bb deep vs good opponent Quote
09-12-2012 , 11:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by NewLiveFish
You need to spend a lot less time worrying about what range a good villain puts you on and a lot more time on the basics of the game. You're trying to ask a level 3 question when it is clear you haven't even understood level 2 yet. Try to walk before you run.
That's why I'm here, mate. Any more advice is appreciated. Detailed would be great, starting with why I have trouble with level 2 thinking.

Thanks for responding.
PAHWM 2/5 200bb deep vs good opponent Quote
09-12-2012 , 01:24 PM
With AA and an SPR of under 3, a dry flop and your image you should be playing for stacks pretty easily. Bet $250 and go all in on the turn.
PAHWM 2/5 200bb deep vs good opponent Quote
09-12-2012 , 02:20 PM
Pretty tough to assign a range on you with this info but heres my guess:

TT+
AQs+
with 89s type hands thrown in about 10%

Flop - go bet 210
PAHWM 2/5 200bb deep vs good opponent Quote
09-12-2012 , 02:22 PM
I am not sure how much I am going to get out of this since I never really play a maniac style, but none-of-the-less I will hang up and listen.
PAHWM 2/5 200bb deep vs good opponent Quote
09-12-2012 , 02:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach McGuirk
I have a bad, maniacal image. I have been opening and raising a lot.
Not enough information, this description can vary so much. Described player can have a range from:

- literally 100% (player who just loves to bet every time it gets to him)
- top 3% (player who raises ATC pre to build pots, but this pot is already big so he's happy seeing a flop)

As played, bet the same amount as you would with AK since you're against a good reg with history.
PAHWM 2/5 200bb deep vs good opponent Quote
09-12-2012 , 02:31 PM
^ to clarify we need to know your rough 3-bet percentage basically. 3rd 3-bet in the past 4 hours? 15th 3-bet in the past 4 hours?
PAHWM 2/5 200bb deep vs good opponent Quote
09-12-2012 , 02:31 PM
Well he is out of position and you describe him as a patient Holdem player. Your range here is essentially ATC but his range is going to be AQs TT+ I feel confident about that range as he's not flitting with suited connectors, and lower pocket pairs.
I like your 3bet though could be a little more with your image.
On the flop I bet a standard cbet amount 2/3-3/4 psb.
PAHWM 2/5 200bb deep vs good opponent Quote
09-12-2012 , 05:01 PM
Why is this a PAHWM? With the straddle, you are effectively 95 BB deep, you have AA which you three bet and were called pre, and now there is a dry board on which everyone agrees should get a $200-$250 bet. Super standard to this point and really there are only two possible decisions that will arise that may merit discussion - do we call his flop check-shove? or do we call his turn donk-shove? Because if he calls flop and checks turn, we are making the PSB to put him all in unless something really weird happens.

So can we fast-forward to the decision point?
PAHWM 2/5 200bb deep vs good opponent Quote
09-12-2012 , 06:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sao
Why is this a PAHWM?
Well, basically because I am a noobtard lol live donkey playing low stakes, and I wanted some criticism of my bet sizing, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sao
With the straddle, you are effectively 95 BB deep, you have AA which you three bet and were called pre, and now there is a dry board on which everyone agrees should get a $200-$250 bet. Super standard to this point and really there are only two possible decisions that will arise that may merit discussion - do we call his flop check-shove? or do we call his turn donk-shove? Because if he calls flop and checks turn, we are making the PSB to put him all in unless something really weird happens.

So can we fast-forward to the decision point?
I think it's important to replay hands that seem standard as well as those where something weird happens. I am interested to know what you guys think of my actions. For instance, it seems I didn't bet enough on the flop...
PAHWM 2/5 200bb deep vs good opponent Quote
09-12-2012 , 06:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach McGuirk
Well, basically because I am a noobtard lol live donkey playing low stakes, and I wanted some criticism of my bet sizing, etc.



I think it's important to replay hands that seem standard as well as those where something weird happens. I am interested to know what you guys think of my actions. For instance, it seems I didn't bet enough on the flop...
Your supposed to get approval to make a hand a PAHWM. This is a perfect example of why.
PAHWM 2/5 200bb deep vs good opponent Quote
09-12-2012 , 06:26 PM
I had 3bet 6 times in 4hrs.

PRE-FLOP
Button ($500) straddles for $10
SB ($700) calls $10
BB Villain ($950) raises to $50 -- he plays position well, so he must be strong here
UTG fold
UTG+1 fold
MP fold
HJ ($1200) Hero raises to $135 with AA
CO ($1300) folds

Villain flats.

FLOP ($290)
Q69
Villain ($815) checks
Hero ($1065) I usually bet up to 75% of the pot when I think I can get good value, but for the last few months, 75% has gotten way too many folds. I realize that it could be that everyone is whiffing really bad, but that doesn't seem too likely.

I bet $160. He shoved after like 5 seconds, I snapped, and held up.

Sorry if this was boring and/or standard. I wanted to see what you guys thought about everything I did, so I strung it out one step at a time. Honestly it's more help for me that way.

I liked that people would have bet more on the flop, because I wanted to bet more, but I didn't.

I'm guessing everyone thinks it's basically a must call on the flop CRAI.
PAHWM 2/5 200bb deep vs good opponent Quote
09-12-2012 , 06:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach McGuirk
The game is eight-handed 2/5 no limit, with a wild high-variance style. I have a bad, maniacal image. I have been opening and raising a lot. I have recently stopped playing so many hands in an attempt to tap the brakes/stop spew-mode. (I realize this is becoming a pattern for me, and I really need to stop playing so many hands)

Villain is mid-twenties, tall, gym rat, pro hustler, quite smart, and quite confident. He is, or has been involved in myriad gambling activities. He is a patient & skilled hold 'em player.

We have some history in the last year. For example, two days before this game, we were in a hand where I turned flopped trips into a bluff on the river. He replayed the hand in his head, correctly decided that my story didn't make sense, and called my all-in. The pot was ~$3000. This guy has owned me pretty hard in most of our match ups.

PRE-FLOP
Button ($500) straddles for $10
SB ($700) calls $10
BB Villain ($950) raises to $50 -- [
UTG fold
UTG+1 fold
MP fold
HJ ($1200) Hero raises to $135
CO ($1300)

What does my range look like here?



A standard decent 3 bet hand.
PAHWM 2/5 200bb deep vs good opponent Quote
09-12-2012 , 06:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ozmosis313
Your supposed to get approval to make a hand a PAHWM. This is a perfect example of why.
Oh! Sorry I effed that up. I didn't know. I've read the stickies, but that was a while ago.

Serious question to anyone who cares: if I have a hand like this that doesn't really warrant a PAHWM, is there an accepted way to present it in Live Low-stakes NL?
PAHWM 2/5 200bb deep vs good opponent Quote
09-12-2012 , 06:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach McGuirk
Oh! Sorry I effed that up. I didn't know. I've read the stickies, but that was a while ago.

Serious question to anyone who cares: if I have a hand like this that doesn't really warrant a PAHWM, is there an accepted way to present it in Live Low-stakes NL?

just make a normal thread and take out the pahwm part of the title. That does not mean you can't ask for or won't get advice on everystreet.
PAHWM 2/5 200bb deep vs good opponent Quote
09-12-2012 , 06:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AintNoLimit
[/B]

A standard decent 3 bet hand.
Haha wow, I didn't realize how behind I am on what is standard. I really should look you up in Vegas.

It can be difficult for someone with little experience to assess just how clueless they are. I don't get killed in the games I play (perhaps because variance favors me) so maybe I have an inflated opinion of my own skill.
PAHWM 2/5 200bb deep vs good opponent Quote
09-12-2012 , 07:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach McGuirk
Haha wow, I didn't realize how behind I am on what is standard. I really should look you up in Vegas.

It can be difficult for someone with little experience to assess just how clueless they are. I don't get killed in the games I play (perhaps because variance favors me) so maybe I have an inflated opinion of my own skill.



I honestly dont understand the question on this.

A routine average live player will have an atrociously narrow range here. A very good player will have a wider range if he knows anything about the villains tendencies.
PAHWM 2/5 200bb deep vs good opponent Quote
09-12-2012 , 08:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AintNoLimit
I honestly dont understand the question on this.

A routine average live player will have an atrociously narrow range here. A very good player will have a wider range if he knows anything about the villains tendencies.
Even in this wild game, the opening bets had not been $50 until this hand. There had certainly been no 3bets over $100 until this hand. I've played with this guy 15+ times, and he has never had a blow up where he punted off his stack on a silly play. He has shown the ability to make big lay downs. I thought my range was very narrow-looking, so I was surprised by his CRAI on the flop.
PAHWM 2/5 200bb deep vs good opponent Quote

      
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