Hero does have more equity here then I thought at first glace, but I wouldn't expect to pick this up vs an over pair very often. Tilting villain is going to put hero on a draw and call a lot. After looking at the equity, I think this comes down to button's range. If hero think is he opening wide and c-betting a lot, then check/shove is best, hero can't be too far behind at worst and might have some FE vs air. If hero think button has a more narrow range and will check with two over cards a lot then stack sizes put hero back in check/fold to a big bet.

check shove should nearly 0 FE if the opponent has a brain. Put yourself in Vs situation... What does a check shove look like here? CO folds anything but AsXs or set, button calls with JJ+ which we expect him to have. That being said, I'm not quite sure what the best play would be here if we want to have some semblance of FE. Donk psb with a plan to jam turn? I think we rep more by doing this.

Being forced to gii here and praying for fe to make you break even on equity is exactly why all of us said to fold preflop in this marginal spot OOP.

Actions have consequences.

Congrats on binking turn or river tho

Run the math on it. Hero only needs 42% equity to break even if button shoves and we check call turn. We have 39% equity even against a tight range of JJ+. I don't expect button to fold. Against AK, AQ, TT+ we have 59% equity. We may not get paid off if we hit our outs and we want first caller to fold his flush draws. This is a clear shove and at the very worse is slightly -ev if button always has TT+ here and always calls

But yes we should definitely fold pre in these spots. However as played check shove is the best play IF button cbets a lot even if he misses. Otherwise I'd just lead huge, hope first caller finds a fold wih a hand like 77-TT, and get it in. What are we repping by a check shove?? Over pairs, 66, sets, and big draws.

Let me say... my read is we have zero fold equity vs. V2.

I would c/c. No use trying to fold QQ+ of V2 who is tilted, we do have 10 probable outs, so just draw as cheap as possible. I don't think c/j is a good play here.

We has no FE now, according to reads, but what about if a scare card comes? Are we getting paid off if we hit? If not, do we have bluff outs if a spade hits?

If we have either high IOs or high IFE (implied FE), I'm fine with just check/calling here.

I think there are really only 4 scare cards.

We hold 2 of them in our hand. The only cards that could hit that are going to really slow V2 down are the 6's. Then, he'll have 4 PP's which could now be sets, plus 88 and 33 which now are straights. that's 1/2 of the available PP's that have him crushed.

If the flush draw hits, I'm not sure this Villain is capable of folding in this situation. If he's putting his two villains on PP then the flush isn't a big problem.

How can we have zero fold equity? That's absurd.

Is he going to bet/call AQ? KQ? AK?

Getting him to fold hands like those that we currently beat is good for us. He has around 25% equity with, say, AQ and a backdoor flush draw. Denying him that equity and capturing it for yourself is a very good outcome. And of course he's not folding QQ+, who is?

I mean, if you have "zero fold equity," then I guess check/shove is even better because he's stacking off with a range we're destroying.

So... check/shove for pure value.

Whether it's a semi-bluff or for value, check/shove is still your line with "zero fold equity."

If you think V2 will call with 100% of his range and was betting wide preflop, then go ahead and shove now. It gives you the best chance of getting V1 to fold.

Since V1 is short and is only going to stick around with better hands or draws with decent equity, getting him to fold the bottom end of his range is good here. He is short enough that your not worried what he does, your priced in to play against him even if he flopped a set. What you don't want is facing an over pair and a draw because that really hurts your equity. Folding V1 out when he has bad draws, small over pairs or A7 type hands is good.

Let's assume he is [JJ+, AQs+]. And then let's give V1 [22-JJ, AQs+, AKo].
Question : if this is the range we put our opponents on and were going to check / shove , don't we want CO to remain in the hand ?
After the flop we have 38% equity. BTN has 40%. CO has 22%.
We check , CO checks , BTN c-bets $75-$100. I immediately look left to get a read on the CO. If he looks like he's gonna shove , is it best to just call the BTN c- bet , let the CO shove , the BTN call the shove and then shove ourselves ?

If CO Shoves he does not have the range you are giving him...

He's become emotionally unstable, we're all in late position, and this is a fairly good squeeze opportunity (I fold 66). His range is not JJ+, AQs+.

I agree with this.

Update:

Hero checks, CO checks, BU thinks for about 20s and slowly counts out $75 and bets.

Pot is now $210, with $75 to call. V2 has $280 left. V1 has $230 left. Hero covers.

CO does not make any moves or sounds.

Hero?

Then what do you think is his range?

Even if its wider then [JJ+, AQs+], its not tremendously wider.

Given CO's preflop action...

Given the pot size and CO's remaining stack...

What would be CO's shoving range?

The bolded is just flat out wrong IMO.

We want to take him to value-town when he has 25% equity. We never want him to fold. We are willing to lose money when Villain has us beat with the stronger parts of his range, and we are willing to risk him catching up with the weaker parts of his range, so that we can win more money the times where we are a 75% favorite.

I'm just not even sure why you would say such a thing.

Shove seems like the only decent option. V2's under bet on a moderately wet board means either he wants to get it in, or he is just probing. Given he is on tilt, I expect he wants to get it in, but Hero has enough equity. The outside chance he is just probing and might fold to a shove is just a bonus. Depending on how V1 plays though, his careful lack of action might indicate he intends to play. Many V1 type players would have already mucked or made it clear they had no interest in hand if they intended to fold. This is very villain specific though, and some are not easily readable that way even if they are done with the hand.

In the end though, I don't think it matters. The $75 is too much of an under bet to fold and if hero calls he can't fold to CO's short stack. Having gotten here I think hero has to buckle in to the variance coaster and shove.

+1

Backing up a little bit for those advocating a fold preflop: just because villain won't stack off when we catch a set doesn't make PPs less playable (less EV), it makes them *more* playable (more EV). DUCY?

In these cases we do, however, need to expand our thinking beyond "hit a set or fold."

Oop though against a tilty villian

First, seat change. How in the world are we going to target the tilting semi-pro when he's sitting to our left? Get position on him or get across the table, imo.

I raise to $15 preflop. It's been folded to us so it doesn't look like we're going to go very multiway where we can simply setmine against the world. So instead let's just try to win a small pot via aggression, especially with blinds being tight and probably fit/foldy.

GaggrotardG

Preflop, this might be on the horrendous loose side, but I could see me calling here. This might entice to the CO to come along, where we'll be getting ~3:1 preflop and have ~11:1 implieds. We don't have position, which sucks, but we are against a tilty guy who's down multiple BI's and will probably be unable to release a big overpair. However, he might also just realize we are opening light and be light 3betting, which means we might not get paid off on a set as much as we'd need. Meh?

GprobablycallingandfeelingreallydirtyaboutitG