We could have just called turn and folded river UI. Thats really the only alternative OTT when we flat pre.

I hate flatting pre tho. I dont want to rely on v putting $ in post. Our hand performs so well vs his r/c range, why not build the pot pre

I hate to repeat myself, but since this thread was bumped up again:

1)Because i _want_ villain in there with his wide range. I _want_ him going to the streets with all his garbage he is raising preflop like 6-4 suited, 7-8 off, 9-10 off,Q-10 off and what not. I dont want him to be able to raise up too wide of a range preflop, only to be 3 bet so he can potenially easily fold all the weak parts of his range.

2) So i want him in there with all those hands, so he can feel compelled to barrell off post with dominated top pairs, middling pairs, gutterballs, dominated flush draws and so on. And if he is going to do that, he need to be in charge as the preflopraiser+me with a percieved weak defendingrange from the BB. His obvious weakness is that he is too aggressive, and the way to win as much money as possible off those kind of villains is to let them empty themself because often they dont know how to put on the brakes properly.

I agree. If V is LAG, our PLAN is not necessarily to get stacks in with top two, although it's not a bad outcome (unless V shows up with the nuts here). What we want is for V to fire 2 (if not 3) streets with J9 on JT723r when we hold KJ.

Exactly.

Or getting it in almost dead with a dominated smaller flushdraw on the flop. Or barrell off with a gutter or open ender giving me money when i have top pair+. And so on and so on.

Do we understand how seldom we are up against flush over flush, when we have KhJh? IMO, worrying about flush over flush, when you have the K is MUBSY.
To begin with there are only 10 combos of AhXh & 1225 combos he could have been dealt with 50 cards. 121.5:1 or 0.8163%

Then you have to flop a flush draw, or a flush:
[9h*8hs*46]/6 = 552 flops that also includes those times you flop a flush.

Let's give Durr Jr. Ah5h, leaving 48 unseen cards - [48*47*46]/6 = 17,296 flops.

552/17,296 = 0.03191 or 3.191% of the time we flop a flush draw or a flush.

Then the 2 events have to occur; both be dealt two hearts, him with an ace & then flop a flush or flush draw:
0.008163 * 0.03191 = 0.00026048 or 100% - 0.026048% = 99.8734/.026048 = 38383.07:1

AND you block the QhTh9h flush AND the bulk of the time you only have a flush draw.
So, the bulk of the time, you have to have a 3rd event occur: flush on Turn or River.

Zuneit: yes, i (we) of course understand that flush over flush rarely happens as i didnt start to play 1 week ago- you are just pulling out a single straw out of the context of my post, and forgetting about the big picture. Youre argueing against strawmen and fighting semantics, and i dont like it very much to be honest- its not bringing value to the discussion at this point.

Ok, I won't post anymore in the thread. My apologies if I insulted or hurt your feelings.
However, you were the one that stated:

Or getting it in almost dead with a dominated smaller flushdraw on the flop

And I could not, for the life of me, understand why that thought even crossed your mind.

You arent insulting me or hurting my feelings, but your getting hung up on sidetracks or pulling small pieces out of context- wich isnt constructive for the discussion.

It was an example of one of many scenarios that may very well happen if i flat. He will raise all kind of inferior suited combos like 6-4 suited, 6-3 suited, 7-8 suited, 7-9 suited and so on.

Not at any point did i say anything about that happenning often, but when it does i get his stack almost dead. What was my main argument is that he will flop second best pairs, second best draws or just sitting there empty being forced to barrell off pretty often and that is my main argument for flatting pre.

Being able to flop dominated flushdraws against him is just one little piece of the complete puzzle.