Villain is Renton. He likes to checkraise this flop against me with overs and maybe any pair (never seen him slowplay). He knows my TAGish game very well and knows I'm capable of big folds. General history is that he raises me and I have the nuts a lot and he thin vbets himself sometimes vs me.

What do you do with 88-KK. Whats the cutoff for calling/folding anywhere?

Poker Stars $3/$6 No Limit Hold'em - 8 players - View hand 7442
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

MP1: $675.00
Hero (MP2): $724.95
CO: $609.00
BTN: $843.00
SB: $603.00
BB: $657.75
UTG: $2237.60
UTG+1: $603.00

Pre Flop: ($9.00) Hero is MP2 with 88-KK
3 folds, Hero raises to $18, 2 folds, SB calls $15, 1 fold

Flop: ($42.00) 4 4 7 (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $30, SB raises to $90, Hero calls $60

Turn: ($222.00) 3 (2 players)
SB bets $114, Hero calls $114

River: ($450.00) A (2 players)
SB bets $144, Hero

His river betsizing is pretty bad imo. I think it's too small to be a bluff and if he is decent and knows something about betsizing then he should be aware of this.

I don't see folding as an option but it would be pretty baller if you value shoved JJ or something haha. Maybe that's why people always try betting to induce against me :/

I dont think he ever has to be bluffing for 144 to put hero in a really tough spot here.

Its a very manipulative bet when used with a little history. I dont think you can get very specific advice on these situations. But in general, I think its more to level thin value than induce or block.

sounds like a terrific bluff

I guess we should say NH renton

Disagree with this man.

IMO there's some small bet bluff size where the fact that it looks like a value bet goes out the window. This is especially true in a situation where your opponent always has a made hand.

seems fine.

With the history you provided and taking into account the reads you have on him and he likely has on you, the river A supposedly helps his range more than it does yours.

I never played Rent but Im pretty sure he's smart enough to figure that out and to make this bet with the air parts of his range but the problem is that he rarely has air here, unless it's something like QJhh or something.

What exact hand and suits did you have here?

Also, I like these kind of bets, just not in this particular spot.

so, how is my bet both simultaneously bad for value and bad for a bluff? isn't it one or the other? or isn't it at least neutral for both?

well your hand is pretty much face up as 88-KK so he knows that A is a scary card for you... if he was bluffing and he knows that you why would he make it easier for you to call and just not shove? he only has a pot sized bet left.

now if river comes a offsuit 2 we have an interesting discussion


for the record i love the blocker bet as a bluff but it never seems to work

I was thinking of making another post last night before I went to bed and this was kind of what i wanted to say. The ace is certainly a very interesting river card.

imo, the bet sizing is meh because villain is always going to be calling this river. So if you have trips or a fh then you're probably losing or risking losing a ton of value. If you have an ace you're losing value and if you have something w/ sd value you're probably burning money because it will likely be behind villain's range. ie, doing this with 66-99 seems pretty gross and (i obv don't know your game) but most people won't show up with QQ+ here so i would assume you have some middling pair here a ton of the time (which becomes highly exploitable once I know this) and still gets owned when JJ shoves in against you for value. But it's irrelevant because I just call or shove river no matter what under most circumstances, although maybe fold 66 if I got to river with it.


*I think coordi's leveling thin value idea makes the most sense.

Ricky, lets say that my strategy for simplicity here is to:

a) bet for value whenever I feel its profitable to do so (lets say for argument I believe that JJ+ Ax 4x and boats are the hands worth vbing)

b) bet as a bluff whenever i somehow manage to arrive at this river with air (i.e. with QhJh or something as was mentioned)

c) bet as a bluff with a hand I was valuebetting on flop or turn, such as 99

d) bet the same amount regardless of whether my intentions are a), b), or c)


Given those parameters, what would you determine the optimal bet size to be?

oh and also i can't even begin to fathom how gross shoving JJ (or even Ax) would be here vs anyone. Maybe shoving JJ is profitable as a bluff?

I'm mostly just forum leveling with the shoving JJ thing.

for a) If you feel it's profitable to bet these hands then why are you not betting more for value? Given the pot size and history do you really feel that a smaller bet increases the # of hands he calls with to such an extent that there is more ev to it?

b) I'm not sure how I feel about laying someone a huge price to snap off a bluff in a situation where they will almost always have some decent sd value. If the bluff is to create some "I will cr 3 barrel air here" metagame the times you do get called I still don't think it's good.

c) I don't have a huge issue with this but it is likely going to be pretty exploitable if you don't balance the bet sizing with other hands. However in this situation I think you are likely passing up too much ev or burning money by balancing out the 99/1010 hands that you are turning into bluffs with the stuff from a) and b).

I think the above kind of covered d). I think we agree on a lot of the stuff regarding the intentions of a bet but given OP's read on you and the high probability that he has a pretty good hand I don't think a bet of this size is in order. That said I actually think that checking, shoving and 150 are all pretty sucky options. I lean more towards a check or shove line here though. fwiw I don't play on stars and have no idea who you or OP are so maybe I'm missing something.

In my head at the time I just thought godammit he has AQ like every time here and I can't represent **** except 77 on the river to shove with

i rr the flop. once he leads into you on the turn hes saying i know you have a real hand and i dont care. river changes nothing you were losing on the turn. i say he has 56. which is a bad call by him pf vs. a tag player.

two thousand ****ing two?

flop RR vs renton would be veeeeeeeeery coool idea. And if I am going to call, I raise any turn.