That hand showed he played jacks passively, and a donk bet isn't the same as a 3x c/r over 4 players, it's like night and day with respect to the stregnth of his hand.

Yeah, obviously the more multiway we go to the same SPR then things are going to differ (which is why I go out of my way to do something different preflop). Still, in this exact spot we got in 10% of our stack preflop (offering fairly poorish ~10:1 IO to the first caller, although admittedly the other callers got increasingly better IO although not remotely close to insanely good) and we're up against a guy clicking buttons who could easily overvalue facing a lol 1/4 PSB bet in a relatively huge pot compared to stacks.

Gnotfistpumping,butnotnotgettingitineitherG

Not sure how to interpret the c/r amount, as 1/4 pot bets themselves are not interpreted by opponents the same way.

Hero made a $25 bet into a $100 pot, some will see that as weak and put in a raise with JJ or tp+straight draw, neither or which I see folding to a shove.

This guessing game is partly why I like betting a little more than we did preflop, like $40.

There are some scenarios in which being first to act or second-to-last to act on the river can be advantageous. They're often pots no one has been fighting over, so the first person to bet is going to take the pot down.

Heads-up, we have the option to bet first. Pretty simple.

Multi-way, after the last to act player showed weakness on turn, I like being in the position of being able to bet after all the other players in the hand have checked in front of me, but before the actions gets back to the last player. Second-to-last, I'll sometimes stab at the pot before the last player gets the chance. If he folds, odds are good everyone else will, too, and I'll scoop.

Makes sense. Thanks.

Just think of how the remaining streets will be played. If he has JJ/QQ he's not going anywhere anyway, so there's no need to get it in on the flop. I think a lot of players have this tendency to assume the opposite; "if my opponent is pot committed then I can confidently ship the flop". In particular I imagine they are worried about action killing turns/rivers like a random Ace or straight completing card. But in your attempt to avoid losing value you ensure only better hands get it in. It's sorta like the guy who jams JJ preflop every time because he doesnt want to see any overcards and just assumes if someone has QQ+ he got unlucky.

To that end, what I really want to object to is the concept of 3betting flops in general. This is almost always a bluff whether you have KK or not. Think about it; check raises usually represent 2 things -- a trap / a huge draw. We'll disregard concepts involving TP since thats too villain dependent. The first category is almost universally true. KK beats draws, but not by much, and is frequently dominated by traps. So your options when calling are to fade the draws and evaluate if you have been trapped. The good news is many players shut down their semi-bluffs when called because your range just looks too strong for them to bluff at, and it is, you have KK and big draws of your own in these spots. Even if they dont shut down you at least give yourself room to improve on the turn and/or soul read. You wont always make the correct decision but it beats almost *never* making the correct 3bet. You also need to look at what a 3bet does to your opponents range; they can *only* continue with essentially traps/big draws. You havent defined their range at all when you do this. If they fold then they had complete air or a really weak draw like maybe a gutter. When they snap you know you're screwed.

The only time a flop 3bet is warranted, and this is still a big if, is multiway on extremely coordinated textures when you possess the nuts. At that point it's just a combination of getting value/equity denial. You're ok telegraphing 88 on a 678hh flop because you know you're never drawing dead and many people just wont let go of A5hh and with 2 or more interested opponents it's incredibly likely someone just flopped very well.

What's your overall strategy for winning and not losing from a maniac? What's your tolerance for risk? Are you willing to sit there and throw in 5-6 buy ins to try to get the guy? Are you leaving after 400? This hasn't i less important than you having a strategy to face this guy or a table like this.

Ok but are you referring to 1/3 fish games or including better players in this? For instance, there's a guy at my casino. He x/raises so often. He's one of the best players in the room but I would say he's "over check raising" if that's a thing. His checking range can be very nutted and I'm trying to adjust coming from the weaker tables where weaker players check-call OOP. I've seen him check-raise K9s on a K-9-7 two-tone. OESDs. and A5hh on a Th-7s-5c board. What hands should I be 3-betting? If any? Do I just call lighter IP and strap in?

I think my problem is I get frustrated somehow and don't want to make any further decisions so if I'm not very deep (SPR < 2.5) I shove and if I am deep (SPR > 4) I just fold.

It's sort of a good idea in general when facing raises or any bet that is very polar to not to raise too often with the type of hands that mainly beat bluffs and lose to value when you want bluffs to continue. But when you can beat some value and the SPR isgoing to be less less than 1, sometimes it is fine to just get it in.

First and foremost how do you know he's one of the best players in the room? Unless you've been keeping track of all his sessions over the past few years, we shouldn't assume these things just because he's aggressive and might always have big chip stacks. These types of players are more volatile style players and they're often in for more than a couple bullets. I know plenty of aggressive players who play all the time but aren't winning, and there are also people who have nothing to do but have a lot of money on hand either from an inheritance, selling a business, or they still live at home with no bills that are slowly burning away their money. It doesn't mean they're the best players in the room (just my two cents).

In order to know what hands to 3bet, you first have to decide what the range is of the original raiser, and how they respond to 3bets. If they're sticky like this villain was but tight from EP to begin with, we're just pressing buttons 3betting them light.

Ok yea that makes sense. thanks. "A polar range should rarely be raised" is a good summary. Because it allows them to play perfectly and siphons off your EV when their air folds.

It is, but again, when the SPR is less than 1, it really doesn't matter much, your hand is good enough to get in. If we were very deep, we would not want to 3bet.

If he's x/r'ing a lot that means he's expecting people to bet so just check behind the vast majority of your range. If you have 78 and the flop is T85r then dont bet. If the flop is T65r then we dont mind the x/r. Eventually he'll start cbetting again which will reduce the strength of his checks.

Ok thanks. I always value bet so thin against most loose passives so I have to readjust to him. My thin value bets IP get blown off their equity with him.