Quote:
Originally Posted by Stupidbanana
Ahhh man **** if I know. I'm in the moment. Table has been loose passive all night with hardly a raise. Guy has the audacity to checkraise me and for small sizing...I'd played a couple dumb hands. NIT folded 88 pre earlier and wouldve flopped a set and stacked a guy. Now card dead for several orbits. Idk. I kept thinking about the hand where he had AT and just figured its some naked 9 trying to get fancy. He couldve had JJ or QQ even with the way things went.. gah.
Just think of how the remaining streets will be played. If he has JJ/QQ he's not going anywhere anyway, so there's no need to get it in on the flop. I think a lot of players have this tendency to assume the opposite; "if my opponent is pot committed then I can confidently ship the flop". In particular I imagine they are worried about action killing turns/rivers like a random Ace or straight completing card. But in your attempt to avoid losing value you ensure only better hands get it in. It's sorta like the guy who jams JJ preflop every time because he doesnt want to see any overcards and just assumes if someone has QQ+ he got unlucky.
To that end, what I really want to object to is the concept of 3betting flops in general. This is almost always a bluff whether you have KK or not. Think about it; check raises usually represent 2 things -- a trap / a huge draw. We'll disregard concepts involving TP since thats too villain dependent. The first category is almost universally true. KK beats draws, but not by much, and is frequently dominated by traps. So your options when calling are to fade the draws and evaluate if you have been trapped. The good news is many players shut down their semi-bluffs when called because your range just looks too strong for them to bluff at, and it is, you have KK and big draws of your own in these spots. Even if they dont shut down you at least give yourself room to improve on the turn and/or soul read. You wont always make the correct decision but it beats almost *never* making the correct 3bet. You also need to look at what a 3bet does to your opponents range; they can *only* continue with essentially traps/big draws. You havent defined their range at all when you do this. If they fold then they had complete air or a really weak draw like maybe a gutter. When they snap you know you're screwed.
The only time a flop 3bet is warranted, and this is still a big if, is multiway on extremely coordinated textures when you possess the nuts. At that point it's just a combination of getting value/equity denial. You're ok telegraphing 88 on a 678hh flop because you know you're never drawing dead and many people just wont let go of A5hh and with 2 or more interested opponents it's incredibly likely someone just flopped very well.