to sum it up : rumours, rumours and more rumours.... along with their respective interpretations.

the more someone is close to the negociations between PS and DOJ, the more likely he'll keep his mouth shut, so nothing surprising i guess.

IMO PS saying they're considering buying FTP is quite a cheap and powerfull PR move ; aswell, them effectively buying FTP would be more or less a way to turn a portion of the fine they owe into a (quite expensive but rather convincing) publicity. period.

aren't the real questions :

A) in trial, what could reasonnably expect a victim of FTP to obtain given legislation/precedent/.... ?

B) how does the DOJ really care about FTP players getting repaid ? it would be interesting to look at similar cases they solved in the pass and see how they treated the victims - eg, iirc, victims of a ponzi scheme obtained reimbursment

and yes, - it'd be criminal to pass out on -

C) will we ever see the effing monies

but regarding that one, IMO, PS buying FT or not is all about the how, and might really be close to irrelevant to the if.

Of course they "care" but that doesnt make a few hundred mil appear out of no where.

IANAL but I cant find any examples of a ponzi scheme where things ended well for the victims. It seems that even if lots of money is recovered, everyone fights over it for years in court.

I'm just curious how much this "victims fund" the DOJ promised has in it. I'm not optimistic.

btw

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_envelopes_problem

totally off-subject but awesome read

well it's a good thing FTP wasn't a ponzi scheme. Just because they were fraudulently representing the company as containing all of player money and having it all in segregated accounts doesn't mean it was a ponzi scheme. If you do the math on the money they embezzled/paid or loaned to their pros+the money that was lost by DOJ seizings+the money they paid out in marketing to ESPN etc- the money owed players you'll see a difference of several hundred million dollars. Meaning they could have run the company as legitimately as possible and still made several hundred million to pay out in dividends (similarly to pokerstars).

so let's settle this right now, it was a profitable company from which the owners embezzled nearly all of customers money. So unlike a ponzi scheme a rival competitor might see the remaining assets as the pieces towards a multimillion dollar company and not a bunch of fake investment plans and lies (which have no value). If stars is able to resurrect the old site and in the process bring back many of FTP's customers, as well as creating millions of dollars worth of positive brand loyalty for themselves you can see why this deal could happen. Not to mention that the FTP software alone will probably worth more than a 100 million dollars after poker is legalized in the US.

Lastly the DOJ has made it explicitly clear that is views players (both US and ROW players) as victims and that it is their goal to have them made whole. In fact the recent indictments that they surprised Bitar with when he landed in NYC were about fraud relating to stealing player money. The DOJ lawyers have no incentive to screw players out of a chance to be made whole, they don't get paid more money if they are able to confiscate more funds. Also this case is public enough that they understand that not doing everything possible to refund players could result in serious PR backlash.

don't look to conspiracies or make weird comparisons. The parties involved want to work this out, each for their own reasons. I don't know if it will, but various delays haven't come about because Pstars was bluffing about their interest or the DOJ actually doesn't care about players and just wants more cash.

the latest delays are almost certainly do to the out standing third party lawsuits. Obviously Pstars is not going to buy a company only to find out upon resolution of a lawsuit that they have to give up their claim on some part of the assets or pay some settlement. They want a clean bill when they get FTP, and until those lawsuits are dismissed they aren't going to move forward with a purchase. Thus they have to continue taking the same legal steps that they would if no settlement or purchase of FTP was being considered.

I dont think I ever said FTP was a ponzi itself (maybe I did, I dunno), but it is def worthwhile to compare to other cases where people lost lots of money to executive crooks. Yes I do think FTP was profitable and a future FTP could make money.

That said, GBT decided FTP wasnt worth the investment. So that is a huge reason why I don't see FTP coming back. Everyone seems to think that they couldn't get it done just bc they just didn't have the cash. They could have ponied up the cash if they wanted, but they decided it wasn't worth it. IMO if the professionals at reviving busto companies don't think the investment is worthwhile, then I think its silly to argue against them.

And again, the DOJ always wants victims repaid but its usually easier said than done. Most of the dividends are ineligible to sue for (http://www.subjectpoker.com/2012/02/...p-class-actio/), most of the seized money is already forfeit to uncle sam, lawyers are sucking plenty out of what can be sued for by the guilty parties, etc.

On the topic of stars DOJ fine going to players, I dont know and I dont think anyone else does either. It makes far more sense to me that stars simply buys FTP's assets just to make sure their software is unrivaled. Lets just hope you are correct about it being worth 100mil$ because any sale will for sure benefit FTP victims.

this simply isn't true. Everyone close to the deal said that GBT simply didn't have the money to make the investment when the DOJ said they needed to guarantee player payouts in a timely fashion. They had a little bit of capital and tried to leverage it into a steal with the thought that they could make enough over time to cover the rest of the cost of purchase. Essentially they were taking on very very little risk (relative to these kinds of business deals) for a very large potential reward. FTP's software alone sold or licensed to US based casinos in the future would probably be worth what they were willing to put up.

Pokerstars is not in that situation and is not trying to make a steal of a purchase and hang players out to dry. They can't afford to do that because it would be such negative PR in the poker world it would probably be a negative value decision. They'd be better off just staying out of the works in that case.

FWIW GBT isn't the only authority in buying up distressed companies, and I feel like a bunch of 2p2ers that have no knowledge of the industry have given them a little too much weight based on our focus on this one case. If FTP had made their situation known from the get go and allowed open access and free bidding I think it's likely a deal would have happened by now. But doing so would have disclosed the fraud and theft by the owners and they were trying to cover their own asses before the **** came to light. Once again the FTP owners screwed players to protect themselves.

Lastly I'll say that every single person that is following the deal has made it clear that no purchase or sale is going to happen without players being made whole in a timely fashion (both US and ROW). And that stipulation comes from the DOJ. I think if a settlement/sale doesn't happen it's fairly unlikely we'll see a lot of money through clawbacks etc for the precisely the reasons you outlined above. But a settlement with Pokerstars that includes taking on of the FTP assets is not going to happen without payout of ROW players and a remission fund for US players.

the deal might not happen. we may never get our money. But it isn't going to be because Stars tried to screw us by getting the assets for nothing or because the DOJ after declaring us victims and filing indictments alleging fraud against players decided that making us whole was no longer a priority.

you seem very pessimistic about the process. I'm not very optimistic about the outcome (I'd happily take .70/$ right now and have to at least think about anything above .50/$) but I'm not pessimistic about the process. For the first time since all of this happened I feel like the important parties in negotiations actually share the players best interest. Both of them want a deal that results in repayed players, a settlement that ends this case quickly, and positive PR all around. I don't know if it will happen, but I at least feel like they are trying. I never really felt like that during the GBT deal, where one of the involved parties was clearly just trying to get max value for themselves and really had no reason to worry about what players thought of them (as they didn't have any reputation to blemish in the poker world).

now that is a lot of text.

It's no surprise this is drawn out and complicated

theres 3 parties involved

Pokerstars- a business looking to make money. Also known as a deal maker

Lawyers- get paid to drag things out and complicate them. Also known as deal breaking leeches

Government- an organization where incompetent dipshlts are appointed positions where they have enormous power with very limited experience and ability

A business to business transaction has some hurdles but successful businesses have these things called efficiency and competence. Pokerstars is dealing with world class deal breakers right now so they deserve some patience. Theres no way Pstars is stepping in this mess unless they have legit good intentions. It would also be a terrible idea to piss the doj off re: the FT deal while they still need to settle their own bs

I have faith in Pstars but its going to be hard work. its really surprising how ******ed the government is. Imagine going to a senior citizen assisted living community and trying to introduce change. confusion and chaos

I'm not sure what exactly your disagreeing with, just that GBT didn't physically have enough cash in the bank to payout players had they wanted to? Doesn't matter really. Yeah they were trying to get a steal of FTP in but its pretty obvious FTP assets aren't worth near what players are owed. Imo the value of these assets will determine victim compensation and its probably no more than 1/3.

Lets pretend Stars ends up doing what is worst for players, buying FTP assets only and contributing that to the victims fund. Is the negative PR from this really going to threaten their business in a manner that is even close to comparable to keeping FTP software under their control (which is basically what gives them their world wide monopoly). Even if that amount is 1/3-1/4 of what is missing, that would probably be a massive majority of what the victims will receive.

And no stars should DEF not stay out of the works in any case. Imagine what would happen to their almost monopoly of the world market if FTP software fell into some other hands (888/party/etc).


And yeah I'm very pessimistic because its been over a year now and there is not even the slightest indication of a good outcome. FTP isnt worth reviving, we cant even sue for the money that was stolen, and this will easily drag on for several more years.

they both did not have the cash to pay out players, and until the last few weeks it was questionable if they ever had the cash to make the deal they were proposing. FWIW I think to different companies FTPs assets have different worth. The worth to pokerstars has to be a great deal more than GBT that might not have any idea how to turn the mess into a profit. Whereas pokerstars is in a position to immediately return the site to a functioning company, which of the staff to keep and which to let go (while also keeping some of these people away from their rivals), while also knowing best how to sell and license the software. Simply put GBT was trying to take a fraction of the companies value (and debt) and leverage it into a windfall in a multibillion dollar industry. Just because they didn't succeed doesn't mean they didn't think the company had more value than that. Remember it was the DOJ that ended that deal, not GBT. I'm pretty sure that GBT only had the fine money to pay the DOJ read to go, and if I remember correctly with the deal they would only have to pay 30 million or so of the fine up front with a longer time frame to pay the last 50 million.

you're kind of comparing apples to oranges here. And IMO we wouldn't really even be considering the GBT offer if FTP's owners hadn't tried to secretly sell the company in order to hide the fraud and embezzlement. If they had owned up to their mistakes in April of last year, opened up the books and put the company on the market I think a sale would have happened fast and players would be paid back. Don't forget these are poker players making these decisions, they have no ****ing clue what they are doing. It would be like throwing you or me at the top of Enron at the end. We'd be ****ing clueless.

how is this what is worst for players considering the paragraph you write below? what you're saying in that case is that we'd get more money than we would otherwise. Even though I don't think the DOJ would ever make the deal your implying (it's very similar to the deal they turned down from GBT) it still would be better than nothing.

And lastly look at stars response to the rumors that the deal was dead last night. If they were just jerking players around that would be such negative PR for them they would never do that. Stars didn't get to the top of the industry by being run by morons. They could have squashed these rumors months ago or just stayed out of this whole saga if it could turn a negative light on them. Their intentions are clearly legitimate. It might not work out but it won't be because this was part of a scheme to screw over FTP. FTP is already screwed over.

Listen I'm pessimistic about ever seeing my money too. We're at a stage were we have more positive signs to a resolution than just about any time in the past year, and I still would consider taking .50/$ for my money. But the process itself is now exactly what you would hope it would be. Granted I think we all wish this had gotten started last summer, but now we have the following situation:
1. the company that could best get value from FTP is interested in purchasing it and would gain value both by having the assets as well as creating massive good will in the community they are serving.
2. this same company has incentive to work out a deal in order to get a more lenient fine and sentencing for their own indicted.
3. The DOJ has openly declared us victims, amended indictments against the FTP owners for defrauding players, and has made public that returning player money is a goal in wrapping up this case.
4. both sides have started the process to get various third party lawsuits dismissed so that FTP would be a clean of other claims when the sale is completed. All of the 2p2 law and finance heads posting in NVG agree that this would be a final and important step to completing any deal.

I don't encourage optimism or hope. It won't help you sleep and night and won't get your money back. But pessimism based on a poor understanding of what is happening also doesn't make sense.

Yes very true

Its not and that was sort of my point.

Rumors of any kind are worth absolutely nothing. I know NVG is addicted to them but its nothing but a massive circle jerk.



Lets just bring this to a close and agree to disagree. I just dont see Stars paying back FTP players in full to bring back the site; it just makes more sense to me for them to simply buy assets and that will be their contribution to victims. I cant think of much else to say and you REALLY like to type

I love lamp

i really don't get why some guys here think stars sees any value in FTP itself. the only reason they're considering it is bc of their problems with Doj.

they already have a monopoly on the market, their soft is the best, they have zoom.....

they'd NEVER EVER consider buying it if it wasn't to sort their legal problems out in the most favorable way - as i said, converting a portion of their fines into a huge marketing move.

I really opened the pandora's box with that post eh?

NCSUs gonna NCSU...

http://www.pocketfives.com/articles/...r-dead-587542/

interesting read.

while I think the article is very positive for us, I can't seem to get over the fact that it's been about 15 months... I think if this ever ends well for us, it will be so surreal that I won't believe it for about a week.

http://www.legalpokersites.com/blog/...ing-to-report/

sup

If this falls through now I'm just gonna start to cry.

This is the first time i've felt joy in this process. Please don't make it for nothing.

Worthy to note this girl has reported the deal done once before in the past.

Boom Headshot

huge. Also pokerfuse has taken down their tweeting saying elois was wrong in the past... so perhaps this is her first time saying so. Seriously could be a great day for us.

OMG how many times have we gone through this process?


Please wait for actual news. This is why we get disappointed every freaking time.

Yeah, you guys need to calm the **** down. When you guys get excited, I can't help but join in and I can't handle the disappointment anymore.

We should all write a book about this entire process, regardless of its conclusion.

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