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Nuts on the turn, not nuts about river Nuts on the turn, not nuts about river

10-04-2010 , 12:28 AM
I was playing in a $100 max buy in 1/2 game and had ran my stack up to 265. A very loose aggressive player at the table had about 500 and this is the first hand that I got really involved with him in.

P1-early limp
P2-early limp
LAG player with 500-middle pos. limp
Me in sb with AsJs raise to 15

call,call,call (pot 60)

flop-Kh 10s 6c

check, check, check, check (pot still 60)

turn Qh

I bet 50, fold, fold, call from LAG player

river Ah

I check, LAG player goes all in and covers me (I have 200 and pot is now 360)

Do I call? How is my line? This guy had been loose aggressive but hadn't made a bet this big yet in the course of the session. I was happy to make the nuts on the turn but now I'm concerned about a flush. When he called the turn, I definately thought a flush draw was in his range, also since the river was an Ace I'm now chopping with any Jack.

I'm new and just curious what you guys think. Thanks in advance.
Nuts on the turn, not nuts about river Quote
10-04-2010 , 03:21 AM
Tough spot. I'm pretty sure we can eliminate bluffs from his range in this spot but I think we are chopping too often to fold. As played I probably call, but we should have shoved the river here imo.
Nuts on the turn, not nuts about river Quote
10-04-2010 , 09:55 AM
I think its a fold IMO. Your getting 1.8/1 odds so with my monkey math, You need about 60% to win to break even. A lot of the time you are going to break even on calling the extra $200 and just chop with Jx's and than the other time your going to get stacked. I think I just lay it down and try to get in a better situation. Ah was definitely the worst card you could have gotten. If was just a random heart I would be more likely to call.

I would say (since your read is a flush draw on turn):
40% - Flush
60% - Straight (it just doeskin make as much sense imo, KJ, QJ, AJ, maybe J10)
0% - Bluff and random 2pairs or sets.
Nuts on the turn, not nuts about river Quote
10-04-2010 , 10:23 AM
I don't see why you guys are eliminating bluffs from his range, he could be turning any one pair hand into a bluff here when checked to. I call this. If it was an overbet or something I'd consider a fold, but against the described villain with just about half the pot left I can't fold this.
Nuts on the turn, not nuts about river Quote
10-04-2010 , 02:04 PM
Thank you guys for your input. I felt like it was a tough spot and I ultimately folded to wait for a better spot. I've just been looking at these spots and trying to determine what would make calling profitable. Usually, I tend to fold if I don't have any info that is swaying my decision toward calling.

Someone mentioned shoving the river and one of the things that I was wondering about is making a smaller bet, maybe half pot.

Would it make sense to use a smaller bet to help get me to showdown when I'm splitting the pot? Maybe even get hero called by two pair?

If I bet half pot and the guy shoves, do I ever fold with 120 behind?

Thanks for your thoughts!
Nuts on the turn, not nuts about river Quote
10-04-2010 , 02:35 PM
Against a LAG I call here all day. It looks like either a bluff, or he has the straight and is trying to push you off of a chop.
Nuts on the turn, not nuts about river Quote
10-04-2010 , 04:50 PM
i dont understand why we checked the river. backdoor flush is pretty unlikely here. this is an easy 2/3rd pot vbet.

OP I'm never folding to a shove here with these stacks.
Nuts on the turn, not nuts about river Quote
10-04-2010 , 05:10 PM
I really like a c/c on the river here against a LAG.
Nuts on the turn, not nuts about river Quote
10-04-2010 , 05:24 PM
I'd c/c river too.

We get the same result against flushes (lose stack) and straights (chop) as we would with a shove. In addition, though, we get extra value from him trying to represent hands made by the river scare card against the two pair/set part of your range.
Nuts on the turn, not nuts about river Quote
10-04-2010 , 10:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by grindme
i dont understand why we checked the river. backdoor flush is pretty unlikely here. this is an easy 2/3rd pot vbet.

OP I'm never folding to a shove here with these stacks.
Why is a backdoor flush unlikely when the flop went check, check and the turn bet was called. Isn't a flush draw a decent part of LAG's calling range.
Nuts on the turn, not nuts about river Quote
10-04-2010 , 11:27 PM
Raising preflop is questionable. We are OOP and AJ, even suited, is a gross cash game hand. We never fold out the limpers and the hand has reverse implied odds.

Quote:
i dont understand why we checked the river. backdoor flush is pretty unlikely here. this is an easy 2/3rd pot vbet.

OP I'm never folding to a shove here with these stacks.
Quote:
Why is a backdoor flush unlikely when the flop went check, check and the turn bet was called. Isn't a flush draw a decent part of LAG's calling range.
People on 2p2 think that backdoor flushes never, ever occur, primarily because they're used to online where:
A) fewer suited hands are in the mix preflop
B) fewer instances where a street gets checked around occur

Backdoor flushes are pretty common scenarios live because of the nature of the game. For this guy to have JhXh, ThXh, or 6hXh isn't hard at all here.
Nuts on the turn, not nuts about river Quote
10-04-2010 , 11:45 PM
If we are raising PF why are we not c-betting?
Nuts on the turn, not nuts about river Quote
10-04-2010 , 11:52 PM
definitely call river.
Nuts on the turn, not nuts about river Quote
10-05-2010 , 05:12 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hypersion
If we are raising PF why are we not c-betting?
Too many callers and too little equity to c-bet here, especially since this is a $100 capped buyin game, I'm assuming a lot of those PF callers have ideal stacks to check/shove on us.
Nuts on the turn, not nuts about river Quote
10-05-2010 , 09:37 AM
I like a c-bet here because we have some equity (A, Q, backdoor flush). Even if we get checked-shoved on by a $100 stack, we have enough equity to call.

As played, hero's hand is terribly under-repped. Villain could be doing this with a pair of Aces or Kings, or a Jack. The fact that he apparently has high FE against you here makes turning his made hands into a bluff +EV. Good LAGs make money by applying pressure in tough spots. He is almost never checking back here.

Next time go runner runner spade, it'll make your decision easier.
Nuts on the turn, not nuts about river Quote
10-05-2010 , 09:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by grindme
i dont understand why we checked the river. backdoor flush is pretty unlikely here. .
The flop was checked around so its not unlikely he picked up a flush draw and called a turn bet.

How often will the LAG try and bluff the river when checked to?
Nuts on the turn, not nuts about river Quote
10-05-2010 , 09:51 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cgeorg
I like a c-bet here because we have some equity (A, Q, backdoor flush). Even if we get checked-shoved on by a $100 stack, we have enough equity to call.

As played, hero's hand is terribly under-repped. Villain could be doing this with a pair of Aces or Kings, or a Jack. The fact that he apparently has high FE against you here makes turning his made hands into a bluff +EV. Good LAGs make money by applying pressure in tough spots. He is almost never checking back here.

Next time go runner runner spade, it'll make your decision easier.
Under repped? Kind of, but I don't think many people are betting pot in this spot in villains position with a lone A or K for value.
Nuts on the turn, not nuts about river Quote

      
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