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The not so subtle live tells(1/2-2/5) The not so subtle live tells(1/2-2/5)

09-24-2010 , 05:37 AM
I think many of us have been conditioned to think of tells as subtle facial ticks, spazzing neck veins, and shaking hands.

Thinking about my image at the table and things I am doing without really realizing it got me started on some of the obvious things rec. players and fish do that are so obvious.

One of my tells is that i tend to uncap my cards when i intend to fold before the action gets to me postflop. How many other players do this? How often do you look to the players behind you to see what they're doing while the action is still in front of you? I know one guy i play with pretty regularly will beat you into the pot with a draw, but likes to take his time and count out his chips with a made hand. Another I can think of is potting with made hands but betting 1/2 pot with semi-draws.

Most of my experience is with 1/2 with a few sessions of 2/5, but it seems to me that the signs are all over the place if we take the time to glance around the table.

Any more to add??
The not so subtle live tells(1/2-2/5) Quote
09-24-2010 , 05:45 AM
When people snap call you on certain boards, it's often because they have a marginal hand hoping for showdown and they're trying to get you to slow down for the next street. Once you figure this one out you can pretty much double barrel or bluff the river with impunity.

Also if you're the latest in position to raise (especially on the button), and everyone else first to act all snap-check to you on the flop, at least one of them is probably waiting for you to bet so cbetting with air or even a draw is not recommended.
The not so subtle live tells(1/2-2/5) Quote
09-24-2010 , 10:14 AM
Generally, there are a number of players who, when intending to call a bet/raise, will sit behind you with chips in hand ready to toss them into the pot. This is great because you can get a more accurate estimate of your pot odds, and it speeds up the game.

As well, generally if you think for 10+ seconds facing a bet with a player to act behind you... they will let you know somehow what they intend to do (by uncapping their cards or something similar)
The not so subtle live tells(1/2-2/5) Quote
09-24-2010 , 10:18 AM
when faced with a big decision, esp. calling a big bet on river, usually people who bluff breathe really heavy IMO. Alot of times i would cut out the amount while looking at there chest.

OBV doesnt work all the time but works well with fat people.
The not so subtle live tells(1/2-2/5) Quote
09-24-2010 , 01:22 PM
Two that Ive noticed or confirmed from other 2p2 posts in my lol sample size, but seem to be holding true are:

The "balk-bet" followed by a check - Villain cuts out an amount of chips like he is wanting to bet, but then decides better and checks like he's almost taking it easy on you. Villain may be drawing here, but most likely has something like air.


Villain shifts in his seat after his bet or raise is called - Any sort of movement like the villain is trying to get more comfortable. To me, this has shown so far that villain did not want a call.
The not so subtle live tells(1/2-2/5) Quote
09-24-2010 , 02:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MK7749
when faced with a big decision, esp. calling a big bet on river, usually people who bluff breathe really heavy IMO. Alot of times i would cut out the amount while looking at there chest.

OBV doesnt work all the time but works well with fat people.
Weird, cause I find people that are bluffing to be practically not breathing. Heavy breathing is typically a sign of extreme strength.
The not so subtle live tells(1/2-2/5) Quote
09-24-2010 , 03:41 PM
I read about this somewhere...

heavy breathing = strong
no breathing/fast but small breaths = scared

nothing's ever really 100% reliable though.
The not so subtle live tells(1/2-2/5) Quote
09-24-2010 , 04:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by slik
Weird, cause I find people that are bluffing to be practically not breathing. Heavy breathing is typically a sign of extreme strength.

the past 2 times ive used it the guy was relaxed playing poker, then i noticed dude was taking some big ass breatchs and looked liked he sighed almost when i cut my chips out.

sht man maybe i just got really lucky.
The not so subtle live tells(1/2-2/5) Quote
09-24-2010 , 04:24 PM
The Two Handed Bet

Watch for Players who are new to playing live and don't have a very high skill level will often lead the betting on the turn or river with a two handed bet.

If the player has been placing his chips out with one hand and suddenly makes a bet using both hands then they quite likely have the nuts or close to it.
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09-24-2010 , 10:19 PM
Here's a new one, strong = weak, weak strong.
The not so subtle live tells(1/2-2/5) Quote
09-24-2010 , 10:37 PM
Before I decide on my play I always look to my left to see if anyone is either preparing to fold or preparing to bet.

I find most of my tells by looking at my opponents facial areas when they look at the flop, their hands while they bet and their overall posture/body after they bet.

Players often telegraph their actions preflop by either getting ready to muck or loading up on chips.

When they bet i look at their hands. If their hands are shaking they are usually strong. If they bet different than normal it may mean something. Sometimes players flick their chips into the pot, but once in a while they neatly stack them. I remember one regular at the Taj who stacked the chips into piles of two and knocked over one pile toward the opponent most of the time. Then the few times he did not do this, he was usually holding the nuts or near nuts.

I look at a persons posture after they bet. Last week i picked off a tell where a guy sat forward after he bet or checked and covered his cards with his right hand. At showdown he was mediocre strength and had reaons to be concerned about calls. Then one hand he sat back and his hands were crossed in front of him. I mucked AQ after his raise and the player to my left shoved 77. Of course he snap called and showed AA.

Quote:
Generally, there are a number of players who, when intending to call a bet/raise, will sit behind you with chips in hand ready to toss them into the pot. This is great because you can get a more accurate estimate of your pot odds, and it speeds up the game.

As well, generally if you think for 10+ seconds facing a bet with a player to act behind you... they will let you know somehow what they intend to do (by uncapping their cards or something similar)
I actually had a hand about a month ago at the Borgata daily, where a player went all in. I had a mediocre hand and one player left to act after me. I was deciding to call or fold. I looked to my left adn saw the big stack cut out the amount to call. So I decided to fold and he mucked immediately. ???? I asked him why would he do that. We were getting near the bubble and I could've possibly taken the player out. He said he thought he was going to get pot odds if I called for him to make a call. UGGGH.
The not so subtle live tells(1/2-2/5) Quote
09-25-2010 , 12:12 AM
A tell you won't find in Caro's but one that I've found very reliable in weak games is watching the corners of the mouth. A tightening of the lips means stress. It's actually not very subtle IMO once you know to look for it.

Of course, what exactly that stress indicates is up to you to determine but it's powerful information. Watch the mouth when the flop comes out and you can take down a lot of pots where you know your opponent did not like the flop.
The not so subtle live tells(1/2-2/5) Quote
09-25-2010 , 10:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blargle
A tell you won't find in Caro's but one that I've found very reliable in weak games is watching the corners of the mouth. A tightening of the lips means stress. It's actually not very subtle IMO once you know to look for it.

Of course, what exactly that stress indicates is up to you to determine but it's powerful information. Watch the mouth when the flop comes out and you can take down a lot of pots where you know your opponent did not like the flop.
I actually like to watch their face on the flop, but I am generally looking at what their eyes do. Most people if they stare at the flop have not hit it too hard. If they look at chip stacks, they hit it big.
The not so subtle live tells(1/2-2/5) Quote
09-25-2010 , 11:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pclow
I read about this somewhere...

heavy breathing = strong
no breathing/fast but small breaths = scared

nothing's ever really 100% reliable though.
I've noticed that slow "heaving" breaths usually = monsters and short rapid breaths = bluffs. This really only works with rank amateurs...
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09-25-2010 , 02:38 PM
A tell I use that I've never seen discussed before is watching players after the hand is over. Of course, it doesn't help with the immediate hand we're in, but it gives us loads of info to use later in the session.

Example: preflop, we have JJ and raise and get 3bet big and fold. Watch villain for ~30 secs after hand is done and decide if he's happy you folded (=villain had AK/AQ/or was bluffing)or if he's disappointed you didn't call(=villain had AA).

If villain is quiet, reserved, introspective and doesn't engage in conversation with others it means he's disappointed/thinks he could have played different to make more $.

If villain talks freely to dealer or others, sits up high in his chair, exhibits confidence/arrogance it means he's happy with himself("I outplayed my opponenet") that he won without the best cards.
The not so subtle live tells(1/2-2/5) Quote
09-25-2010 , 06:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MK7749
the past 2 times ive used it the guy was relaxed playing poker, then i noticed dude was taking some big ass breatchs and looked liked he sighed almost when i cut my chips out.

sht man maybe i just got really lucky.
Hmm, I find fat people the most difficult to read. Their complexion changes the least. They barely have a pulse. Even their hands are so fat that it's hard to tell from the way they throw chips into the pot, how comfortable they are .

The change in mannerisms when he thought you were going to call when you were cutting your chips is actually a very reliable tell. Any genuine (not acting) mannerism when villain thinks you will do a certain action is typically highly reliable imo.

For the breathing tell, I actually can't definitively say i've been able to use it reliably. It comes down to attributing the breathing to comfort level. Typically, heavy breathing is from excitement, and if people are bluffing (stealing), they tend to try to be as quiet/sneaky/ninja-esque as possible. Though with your fatso, perhaps it caused him so much stress that he had to breath like that to avoid a heart attack .

The ninjaesque behavior also goes with the way they put their chips into the pot. Cutting chips slower than normal is often an indication of a weaker hand (ninja-esque stealing). At the same time a very fast tempo cutting of chips may imply stealing too: they want to get the bluff over as fast as possible to relieve any uncomfortabilily that the bluff brings. Only a normal tempo action is unrevealing; though at the same time these are microtells, meaning they are subtle, and easy to misinterpret, until you see it a few times.
The not so subtle live tells(1/2-2/5) Quote
09-25-2010 , 07:57 PM
Can't believe nobody mentioned it but the most obvious and 100% reliable tell is the speech tell. That's always the nuts or close to it from bad players.

2 recent examples:

Guy opens BU, fish calls in SB, bb folds. flop is KTT with a FD, turn is a brick 6, river is a brick 2 went check check on both. Fish goes "well since you checked twice imma bluff at it" and bets, guy calls with QQ and gets shown KT

I 3-bet squeezed a fish with AJo (no club) he called oop other guy folded

flop was 8JQccc, goes check check, turn is a Jd fish bets 2/3rd pot and i call. river is a brick 2 fish bets $75 (like a 1/5th pot bet) i contemplating shoving for value for $325 more but then he said something like "I know you have AK" which led me to flat call and he had 22
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09-25-2010 , 09:14 PM
Also a fair majority of the time if somebody says 'Just lay it down' or 'You don't have to call' then they probably have you beat.
The not so subtle live tells(1/2-2/5) Quote
09-25-2010 , 10:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by in rilievo
Also a fair majority of the time if somebody says 'Just lay it down' or 'You don't have to call' then they probably have you beat.
Surprisingly this is probably true more than 50 percent of the time and maybe way higher. Do they not understand that they are supposed to be taking our money? Not giving me a reason to fold?

I had AK a week or so ago in a big pot. Eff stacks were over $400 in a $1/$2 game. Flop came KJ2 and after I bet $75 into a $100-plus pot, woman calls sitting directly to my right. She whispers 'I flopped a set of 2s.' She shoves the turn with another 2 on the board for quads. I said thanks and folded.
The not so subtle live tells(1/2-2/5) Quote
09-26-2010 , 12:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by quesuerte
Here's a new one, strong = weak, weak strong.
pretty much the only tell you need to worry about/profit from in 1/2, 2/5 imo
The not so subtle live tells(1/2-2/5) Quote
09-26-2010 , 09:56 AM
here's a few more I know
when someone bets, then leans back in chair and puts their hands behind their head, thats a sign of danger. actually, the general rule is if they lean back and act uninterested, they have a monster.. on the other hand, if they lean back and become stiff as a board, it mean the opposite, they dont want to be noticed. they're scared. I read this one in "read em and reap" and its very true.

An other ive noticed a few nights ago was when my opponent made a big bet on the turn (the turn put a third club on the board) I looked up at him quickly and noticed the fakest yawn ive ever seen. stupid me knew what it meant but I called anyway. he had the nut flush. got busted.

Also I dont know if it was mentioned but.. generally when someone stares you down its often because he's trying to make you fold what might be the best hand. I often call in these situations with 2nd pair/good kicker or better when people try this on me. really depends on what the board looks like though.. ie: when say there's a possible flush on the board and your opponent has TPTK.. its kinda like him saying "dont you dare try to represent the flush" .. so.. in that case you know he doesnt have it.


these are all examples of strong means weak/weak means strong.
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09-26-2010 , 10:19 AM
pclow: at first a read "read em and rape em"^^
The not so subtle live tells(1/2-2/5) Quote
09-26-2010 , 11:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pclow
here's a few more I know
when someone bets, then leans back in chair and puts their hands behind their head, thats a sign of danger. actually, the general rule is if they lean back and act uninterested, they have a monster.. on the other hand, if they lean back and become stiff as a board, it mean the opposite, they dont want to be noticed. they're scared. I read this one in "read em and reap" and its very true.

An other ive noticed a few nights ago was when my opponent made a big bet on the turn (the turn put a third club on the board) I looked up at him quickly and noticed the fakest yawn ive ever seen. stupid me knew what it meant but I called anyway. he had the nut flush. got busted.

Also I dont know if it was mentioned but.. generally when someone stares you down its often because he's trying to make you fold what might be the best hand. I often call in these situations with 2nd pair/good kicker or better when people try this on me. really depends on what the board looks like though.. ie: when say there's a possible flush on the board and your opponent has TPTK.. its kinda like him saying "dont you dare try to represent the flush" .. so.. in that case you know he doesnt have it.


these are all examples of strong means weak/weak means strong.
Surprised it took this long for someone to mention "Read 'Em And Reap" by Joe Navarro. That book is sooooo useful. Joe Navarro was in the FBI for 30+years and he worked in non-verbal tells. Most of the tells he has witnessed after decades of interrogating criminals are all based on biology and evolution. He suggests finding out a "baseline" of where players position their hands/arms during action. When they deviate from this baseline is when you can use what he teaches to your advantage. The more a person's hands/arms encroach on the table, the more likely they are strong or like their hand. The more their hands/arms retreat from the table, the more likely they disliked the flop/ their holding.

The stare-down is also mentioned in the book and is usually an indication that your opponent is trying to get you to play more timidly. Conversely, a player who acts indifferent to the action and uninterested is often very strong.

A person's feet are actually the best, most reliable indicator of a player's strength/weakness. While you can't see everyone's feet at the table, unless you are constanly peeking under the table, there are other ways to figure out what their feet are doing. When players have "happy feet", they are almost always really strong, unless their feet are always bouncing up and down due to nerves or whatever. If it is a player directly across from you, you can look at their shoulders and shirt. These will be vibrating, or moving up and down, if they are exhibiting "happy feet."

If a player next to you suddenly wraps their ankles around the legs of their chair, this is a sign of self-restraint and more likely that they are bluffing. If a player's feet go from being flat on the ground to a ready position (toes forward, heel elevated), this is an indication of the player getting ready to act and thus they will most likely be involved in the hand. When a player's feet suddenly become pigeon-toed (where the fronts of the feet are pointed towards each other), it indicates a player who is threatened and/or nervous and thus they are most likely weak.

When a player knows he is going to be involved in the hand, he will often move his hands further across the felt. If a player raises pre-flop, with hands almost in the middle of the table, then the flop comes and they pull their hands back to the point of being not on the table, this is a sign that the flop was not what they wanted. This is a dis-engagement tell.

If a player looks at his cards and then immediately looks at his chips/ grabs his chips, means they are going to be involved in the hand. If a player is more protective of his cards (he is cupping his hands around them to the point that his cards are almost not visible) usually indicates they like their holding.

Lip pursing by a player often means they are unhappy with the flop or with the action in front of them, etc.

By all means though OP, get a hold of "Read 'Em And Reap." It will pay for itself after one or two live sessions. Plus, it's not over-priced like a lot of poker books (looks like the cover price is $18.95, and not $30+ like the majority of poker books).
The not so subtle live tells(1/2-2/5) Quote
09-26-2010 , 03:53 PM
People who stare at you....weakness


Especially people I have no history with.
The not so subtle live tells(1/2-2/5) Quote
09-27-2010 , 03:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by crsseyed
A tell I use that I've never seen discussed before is watching players after the hand is over. Of course, it doesn't help with the immediate hand we're in, but it gives us loads of info to use later in the session.

Example: preflop, we have JJ and raise and get 3bet big and fold. Watch villain for ~30 secs after hand is done and decide if he's happy you folded (=villain had AK/AQ/or was bluffing)or if he's disappointed you didn't call(=villain had AA).

If villain is quiet, reserved, introspective and doesn't engage in conversation with others it means he's disappointed/thinks he could have played different to make more $.

If villain talks freely to dealer or others, sits up high in his chair, exhibits confidence/arrogance it means he's happy with himself("I outplayed my opponenet") that he won without the best cards.
This is a really good observation and I find that is generally true about any situation. If someone is drawing/bluffing and he gets his villain to fold, he is generally more lighthearted afterwards. This is why I try to talk to people immediately after a hand to gain information.
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