@ Homerdash: The board has a red K, so for example, both KcTx & KxTc, etc. are present in theory. Another point/wrinkle to consider here is that I've seen Villain flat a standard pfr w/ AK already this session, so we can include that in his range too.

@ 4_4: You might be correct, but consensus so far thinks too many Kx fold.

@ feel_wrath: Good points as usual. Also, inspired by your passion for the arts Hope you actually witnessed the part(s) your daughter was in.

My bad on the numbers, looks like I missed the extra turn call to result in my 6x result instead of the 7x result (and this is of course before knowing the river raise was actually called).

As I've mentioned many times, stack sizes have less to do with ~setmining that most think. A too small stack will automatically disqualify it, but just because everyone in the pot is sitting 40x deep or whatever doesn't automatically make it a call either: it more has to do with the quality of your opponents, and in this case both your opponents are described as better than average players. FWIW, if you get in 200bb stacks with a set of 4s against better than average players, you're almost always behind, no?

All I'm saying is that it's a little meh. I mean, we do have the button. And if the blinds are loose/bad, then certainly more reason to call (better immediate odds, better IO).

Git'snothorrible,butit'snotlikegreateither,imoG

Two line checks in standard-ish spots, feeling a bit rusty as I haven't played in a couple weeks

Live 5/5

Hand 1
AK in HJ
EP limp
V in MP2 open limps (VPIP/PFR of 50/10ish, no real postflop reads)
I raise to 30
EP, V call
Flop [$100]: KJ3
Checks to me, I bet 45
EP folds, V raises to 150 (400 behind)
Hero?

Hand 2
JJ in SB, $10 straddle
4 limpers, I raise to 75, MP1 calls
Flop [$170]: A98
I bet 55, MP1 calls
Turn [$280]: T
Hero? Barrel again with the turned equity? How much?

44 hand...

"kinda meh" is typical nitty GGspeak. I would concede that the spot probably isn't as juicy as people might think. But, if you can't call pre here, you're playing some of your other hands wrong.

stack depth matters to the degree that it's likely in play. As GG points out, often overestimated when deep.

the problem with how OP played it imo is that he didn't go for more. You need to go for more so that enough is in play on average to make mining profitable (hopefully we're at least occasionally floating or stealing too), how much you got on this one hand wouldn't prove or disprove anything.

whoops sorry, didn’t reread the hand when i posted early this AM and thought it was the other way. shipping seems fine then but checking has some merit for sure, not gonna personally do it but this is a good spot to cook on the stove and approximate the EVs for each option.

agreed on the stove.

Villains love them some unsuited broadways so I'm shipping.

Hand 1 is a super gross spot. A typical range might be something like KJ, QT, 33, K3s against which we have the surprisingly high equity of 48%. However given the general passivity of this player, it's possible QT is not in his range. I think fold for this reason.

Hand 2, check turn. Betting again overreps the hand. Just try to get to showdown cheaply.

against 50/10 player i’d put some number of KQ in the range way before QT unless specific reads otherwise, but V range could easily be void of both hands

betting turn in H2 would be much cooler without the J♦️ imo, but checking flop initially can be way more profitable against some players

that's an understandable way to think but.... but waiting for the 9 full house and 1 quad cards that can come on the river, also gives the chance for the 8 additional flush cards that can come to make the board a 4 flush. (not counting Kc which does both but favours our set). So the 'fullhouse equity' isn't that much larger than the '4 flush board equity' which can give villain his outs if he has Kxc and potentially makes us fold incorrectly on the river if villain turns his hand into a bluff.

So if we do check back turn, we need to plan our river action before we check.

What is your plan if we check back and a blank comes and villain bets and if a club comes and villain bets?

Hand 1 is marginal and is super read dependent imo. I'm definitely not folding against a guy playing 50% of his hands and am probably cramming tbh, albeit i'm not sure it's correct

Hand 2, Why are you betting flop...as a bluff or for value? I'm checking back flop. As played, I think your cbet is too small...it's a wet board...what would you be betting with AK, AQ here? If you were cbetting (and again, I wouldn't), I'd be betting the same amount.

we don't have stack sizes for hand 2, which is kind of important.

too many permutations of sizings and potential live reads for answering these with low stress imo

I don't mind the cbet in hand 2 (although I would size up a bit). I wouldn't normally bet in these spots but here we can't "check back" because we're OOP and the board is wet. It's hard to explain why I'm OK with the bet as there's no single answer, but here's an attempt.

Our check range is going to be terminally weak on this flop. It pretty much consists of pairs between 9 and A. It's difficult to strengthen it because we don't want to be checking strong hands on this wet board. As a result, it's going to be very difficult to show the hand down if we're winning. We can't really embark on a check-calling project because although we're winning a decent amount right now, the dynamic nature of the board means that our opponent has equity with a lot of hands, while our hand is static and pretty doomed against an ace or a set. Opponents can throw air into their betting range and there's not a lot we can do about it, because we're just not strong enough to call a turn bet.

I guess what I'm saying most simply is that the cbet is a bluff, but a weird type of bluff where we're not bluffing the opponent off showdown equity, but off positional advantage. The equity JJ has is largely an illusion because we aren't going to be able to realise it. I would not even consider betting on an A72r flop or if we were in position, btw.

It might be better to check this hand because we have the J and that offers us some equity protection on some runouts, but I think with JJ no you want to be betting. And obviously against passive players this is all out the window and we need to check.

Should also note that there are plenty of worse hands that can call, which might work out if V takes a passive line thereafter.

For me it just comes down to what the guy most likely has. He called a $125 flop raise, so unless he's like the fishiest of fish this is kinda unlikely to be Kx and much more skewed towards draws, and pretty much every draw got there on the turn. He's passive, so he could easily tarp his flush, or even be scared checking his straight or baby flush. So I pretty happily check back and evaluate the river. Some of the time my 10 outer will hit and I won't have much of a decision. If the fourth club comes and he bets, I also don't think I have much of a decision and fold (if a passive guy is betting a busted 43 OESD good for him). If he checks, I'll have a decision to make whether to check back or go for value (not a bad decision to have). Finally if a blank comes and he bets (the worst of all the possible combinations of what happens), I'll have a decision to make (but even if I decide to call at least I get to showdown for the same price a bet/fold would have done on the turn).

GimoG

Good point about passivity preflop translating to passivity post. Seems super obvious when I type it out but not something I’ve thought of. Villain appearance was a young Asian girl with sunglasses, looked like a grinder type so I assumed she was capable of making a move. If it was an 80 year old WWII vet I’m snap folding there. I end up calling the raise, turn is a blank, and she jams for 400.

Hand 2, I ended up betting 115 OTT, although I guess c/c’ing makes more sense. Is the thinking is to induce a bluff with a draw or worse value like 9x? Are we calling another barrel OTR if we are unimproved?

How many streets are you check/calling with JJ if x’ing Back this flop? We have double BD equity so there’s plenty of good turn cards.

not a meme but it depends. in a vacuum i’m probably playing true TAG opening or 3bing most hands i play along with the fact that A-high boards against a PFR that shows weakness post whether oop or ip induces bluffs (even straight up non-semi ones) from what seems to be a greater part of the population than ever before.

i’ve definitely x/c’d all 3 streets in a spot like this when turn/river brick before and V mucks at showdown as the last aggressor. might be obv but i’d be more willing to call flop than turn and turn than river because the sizes will be larger (not implying we care, but V prob does so they aren’t as inclined to bluff, OTOH the pot is bigger and they prob want it so it balances mostly but not all the way).

yeah was gonna mention the backdoors but they seemed apparent. not so much a ♦️ (still deece) but this is like the GOAT turn, i’d highly consider checking and blasting them if they bet.

H1: 2/5 live. Hero (HJ) has only been at the table for about 30 min and is the effective stack with $750. V1 is in the BB and is a non descript mawg. V2 is a 30 year old guy +2 and I’ve seen him limp call 67o. I’ve seen him limp other hands and play passively including slowplaying flopped trips.

V2 limps, hero opens to $25, V1 and v2 call.

Pot:$75.

Flop: T97r.

X, v2 donks for $45 hero? Hero calls and v1 calls.

Pot: $210

Turn: 3r.

X, V2 $100, hero? Hero calls. V1 calls.

Pot:$510.

River 5r.

X, v2 $175, hero looks at V1 who seems disinterested and calls.

H2: 1/2 live.


Villain (HJ $500) seems like a real donk but thinks he’s a poker legend. Saw him call a Donk shove for pot on T35 two tone 3 ways, then bet a brick turn into a protected pot and then bet a K river with 99.

Three limps including villain, hero raises AsJd to $15 in the CO and gets called by villain.

Flop: J95r one club. .

Pot:$30

Xx, Hero continues for $20, villain takes a while and calls. Feels like he has something marginal but could be fake weakness.

Pot: $70

Turn is the 2c.

Hero bets $50 villain calls.

Pot $170

River is the Jc completing backdoor clubs.

Hero bets $100, villain raises to $200, hero calls.

Oops, hero has KK in H1.

1/3
Hero - New to table, a Reg, known by basically whole table
V1 - older black lady, I’ve played PLO with her in the past and she’s tight, but wasn’t good at PLO. A guess if I had to throw her in a group, she’s a nit. $250
V2 - Middle aged white, weak passive. $250

$10 BTN straddle
Call
V1 limps in
Call
I make it $40 with JJ
V2 sorta reluctantly calls
V1, old black lady calls, and folds around

8810 ($150)

Old black lady checks, she’s playing like $205
I bet $105
V2 folds
Old black lady ships for $100 more... I’m most likely F’d, but 4:1 with an overpair
She has KK

A friend of mine at the table was jokingly telling me how bad this was, that she only has AA,KK,QQ and that I should just be check giving up.

Is this what live LLNLH has come to?
In hindsight, it seems like that’s her range QQ+

But I feel like checking this flop is awful with a player behind, and what’s likely to be way the best hand

Start with sizing down your flop bet. You don’t need to bet big if you have a hand like aces in this spot to get stacks in by the river. Meanwhile, when you have a hand that you want to bluff or potentially bet/fold with, betting smaller gives you a better price.

Do you think she has AT or other Tx in her range when she flats $40 preflop? Since she limped in she very well might, but if you think the answer is no based on your history with her then it’s a fold.

Hand 1: Have to call flop donk, could have QQ, JJ, all pair/SDs in addition to 2p/sets/J9. When he bets 3 streets into 2 people who called flop and turn, I don't think you're beating anything he has at that point. Seems like you're getting a great price, but I don't think you're even good 17% of the time here.

Hand 2: Min-raise river is so strong at 1/2, have never seen this situation not be for fat value. You lose to all flopped OESD/GS w/ a club and maybe some weirdly slowplayed J9/sets. Don't think this is ever a bluff and can't see him doing this with worse than TPTK.

Live 1/2

Hero (UTG+1, $193) is a limit/mixed game player. Read: clueless. This is his 4th hand at the table.

Villain (2 to hero's left, $200) literally just sat down. Late 20's/early 30s white guy. Wearing long sleeves in an airconditioned casino in central Pennsylvania on a 98° degree day. No reads.

Hand
Hero JJ UTG+1
Fold to hero who raises to 8
Vill 2 to his left raises to 35
All folds around and hero calls

Flop [$73 minus insane rake]: 7 high
H checks
V bets 50
Hero shoves

Sorry in advance if this is standard in some way. Thanks for the helps

When it's the guy's first hand I don't see any option but to play it like this and hope for the best. Folding at any point seems too weak and given the size of the pot I don't want to flat flop and potentially give him two cards to hit with AK. One of the things that enables big winrates at LLSNL is making exploitative folds, but you can't try to get away from every single coolered overpair, you'll end up overdoing it.

Line check. 1-3 $288 effective
Mostly loose regs

Button straddle
V1 Sb calls $6
Hero utg calls $6 3c3s
V2 Mp calls $6
V3 Co raise $25
V4 Button call $25
V1, hero, v2, v3 call $25

Flop $128
Ah 5h 3d
Check thru

Turn $128
Ah 5h 3d 9d
V1 $60
Hero $263

Jam is good? Can't bet flop? Standard?

Especially at a reg filled table, I typically fold small pairs in EP. There is just too good a we'll be facing a too expensive raise, and postflop unless we're against idiots there's too good a chance if stacks go in our set might be no good (especially against others calling the raise attempting to do what we're doing).

As played (seeing a flop) the SPR is 2 and the board has a crapload of scare cards that could kill action/hand. Checking is taking quite a risk since it's doubtful in this multiway of a pot that raiser will be cbetting wide. So I'd mostly just donk myself. With such a small SPR, I think you could argue for a shove (attempting to make it look bluffy), otherwise I'd just bet fairly biggish to setup a turn jam.

Turn is standard (imo) and I sleep in the bed we made preflop.

GcluelessNLnoobG