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Non-Showdown Poker, Possible Leaks? Non-Showdown Poker, Possible Leaks?

04-09-2015 , 04:01 PM
I have been taking a raise/bet or fold approach to small stakes live games recently. More or less do not limp or call. I believe my approach my have some leaks, though I feel that any leaks I may have are rarely exploited at smaller games.

Preflop I do not call or limp, with the exception of smaller pocket pairs, and suited connectors from late position in multi-way pots. My gain goal preflop is to have the initiative and position. I feel that initiative and position alone are making me a lot of money in the smaller stake games, though my 3-bet range is a bit wide and heavily weighted to 3-betting in position.

I almost never call a 3 bet out of position, only folding or 4-betting a very tight value range. Furthermore, I am nearly 3-betting all of the time out of position with Value hands AQ+ JJ+, depending on the player I may 3-bet 99 or TT out of position. Furthermore, I may fold AQ or JJ. When in position I 3-bet much more frequently with broadway type hands. In middle position I am 3-betting the better broadway hands that are often suited. As position improves 3-betting most broadway hands, especially from the cutoff and button. No one if ever 4-bets light, and most opponents play poorly in 3-bet pots out of position. I vary my frequency of 3-betting depending on how tight the opponent is, if they raised from early position, and are better at playing 3-bet pots out of position. Nonetheless, I am 3-betting much more frequently with a weaker range as position improves. Lastly, I play a fairly tight range, so much of my raises and bets get a good deal of credit.

By nature of my preflop strategy I almost always have the initiative. Furthermore, I almost always have the initiative while in position. Most of the time I am betting the turn and river with my decent value hands like TPTK. If I do not have a made hand or a hand like second pair and my c-bet gets called, I usually fire a second barrel or thin value bet on the turn especially if I have position, and or the turn card is a brick or improves my perceived range. Furthermore, I don't call check raises or re-raise, and only go over the top with a monster hand or massive draw. Due to my my aggressive play and large volume of c-bets and turn c-bets, I believe I can be exploited if an opponent re-raises or check raises with air or marginal hands. Most small stakes players rarely if ever do either of the above. Since I rarely if ever go to show down, most opponents are unaware of my wider 3-bet range in position, and my tendency to fire the turn with a thin value bet or double barrel. The better more observant opponents can only make assumptions, and I try my best to avoid tangling with them without good holdings.

For the most part, I am making most of my profit while in position with the initiative. Being in position with initiative also allows me to take down many 3-bet pots. My aggressive style causes opponents to make large mistakes, especially when they are out of position without the initiative, plus I get a fair amount of action.

All in all, I recognize my style is exploitable do to my wide 3-bet range in position, relentless aggression, and a large volume of c-bets and turn c-bet with air or thin value hands. Should I look to be making some big changes, or is an aggressive approach utilizing position and maximum pressure suitable to have a decent win rate at the average small stakes games?
Non-Showdown Poker, Possible Leaks? Quote
04-09-2015 , 04:40 PM
I like aggression and taking initiative at 1/2 so I think your strategy is ok.

How is your fold-ability? How easily do you fold? Can you make big lay downs?

When I play against someone like you I often wait for good spots and will reraise you. So I guess it's important that you know when to lay down a hand if facing aggression.

I also think that your range may be too wide.

I personally call with pocket pairs JJ and below to set mine.
Non-Showdown Poker, Possible Leaks? Quote
04-09-2015 , 05:01 PM
I used to be a pretty Nitty play, so I am pretty good at lay down the almighty overpair, tptk, or the occasional 2-pair/set when things get iffy.

As far as balance, occasionally I limp with big pairs, or AK with the intention of coming over the top.

I also believe my range is a bit wide. I am think of dropping some of the weak suited boradway in middle position for 3-bets, and dropping weaker unsuited broadway in middle position for initial raises, hands like QTo, JTo, QJo, KTo. Possibly throw in some better suited connectors from the cut-off or button occasionally to balance my 3-bet and raising range. Hands like 87s, 98s, T9s.
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04-09-2015 , 05:19 PM
Well at least now we don't need to buy your book.

If you are playing with 'regs' you could be in for some trouble in the long run. Players adjust to other players. In a live casino with a large player pool, then I can see this working since 'reg nits' will basically stay out of your way and you 'will' be smart enough to get out of their way when they pay back at you.

I once saw a post from a guy who only played pp and AK/AQ. He would raise the pot/gii PF and shove all Flops he hit and auto-fold all missed Flops. He swore that he was making money with this style ... pocket pair = 1 in 22 hands? Set = 1 in 8 paired hands? That one doesn't add up ... numbers show a set every 176 hands. Obv you have 'good' nights and bad nights with pp and sets, but really!!

Again, anytime you play 3-4 hours with the same opponents they will adapt to what you are doing. Anytime you 'limit' your play you allow your opponents a better opportunity to play perfect poker against you.

In general at low limits the aggressor will win out since there is a lot of dead and scared chips on the table, but there are plenty of sharks as well. BBBeeee careful .. GL
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04-09-2015 , 05:21 PM
this is basically just an extreme TAG style. this is usually a style i recommend to people who are having problems (usually people who limp/call too much and get caught in big hands with marginal holdings) because it makes playing way more straight forward.

at 1/2 you're probably not going to run into enough resistance from good enough players to really have to change what your doing. mostly because there are not enough good players to figure out what your doing and exploit it. if they are good enough, they are usually trying to get to 2/5 and will be gone soon enough

your biggest leaks are going to really be overaggressive situations and folding incorrectly. when you get JJ/TT in the LP/SB/BB and someone raises from UTG, it's really not correct to 3bet someone with those hands because their range is way ahead of yours, so you only fold out worse and get better to call/4bet you. on the other side, folding those holdings is not really correct except to the nittiest players because you're still going to be playing against someone who has broadway nonpair hands in their range and low runouts will be yours. this really only leaves calling, which your avoiding.

as far as limping big pairs or AK, why? you're creating an image of a guy who always raises, so why care about a limp range? just bet AA/KK/QQ/AK because it should blend in when you raise QJs or 77 or A5s or whatever. thats the beauty of having a wide raising range and 3bet range, it makes determining when you actual have QQ+ way more difficult. when someone 4bets you because they get frustrated from your constant 3betting, you can 5bet them with your strongest holdings and fold your weaker ones and they will call it a cooler when you win AA vs their JJ but it's not really a cooler because you're not stacking off with QJs but set it up so they have no clue what to do
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04-10-2015 , 05:47 AM
I think your style should include a calling range preflop as well.

Pocket pairs, some suited connectors, JTo, KQo.

I think you get more value and build a more difficult image to beat than by always be aggressive.

People will more likely fold their better hands to your with that image and I'm not sure they will fold hands more easily just because you tighten up a bit.

By calling a raise with JT, when you hit an AKQ flop, your opponent won't be worried about you hitting trips, they will think their AA, KK, QQ, AK, AQ and maybe AJ, A10 are good.

That's may be an extreme example just to prove the point.

Hope this helps. GL
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04-10-2015 , 08:49 AM
I like that you are folding your junk hands rather than playing them as calling too wide is a problem of many live low stakes players. However playing with a rule like this is like using training wheels on a bike. It will keep you up on the bike but is not as optimal (as fast) as riding a bike without training wheels.

Every situation is different. As such there is not one definitive way you should play a particular hand. However, I'd like to see you flatting more with the top of you range in spots. For instance if a good tight player raises pre he may have a range that includes hands like AQ, AJ, KQ, KJ. However if you 3bet him which of these hands do you expect him to continue with? Quite probably none which means it would be better to flat him with a hand like AK which will allow us to gain multiple streets of value when we flop top pair.

There are also hands that play well multiway so don't 3bet or fold them in spots where it would be better to see a flop.
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04-10-2015 , 10:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by NeverLosesAtPoker
However playing with a rule like this is like using training wheels on a bike. It will keep you up on the bike but is not as optimal
second this. The best example is a really loose table with some drunk gamblers. A lot of money can be made at a good table by limping or calling preflop and letting a drunk kid burn off his stack. The strategy described by OP is great at a table that will give you some play by calling, but there are also tables that will be folding too often to raises that it makes more sense to just call with showdown value. It might make more sense to table change from the more nittier tables but that's a separate issue. As far as playing optimally, Non-Showdown poker is a great approach to an unknown low limit table, but it would be optimal to start making adjustments based on the play.

As far as the question about possible leaks... I would not anticipate much trickery as far as low limit players trying to target leaks. It would be very rare to see a light 3/4 bet and I would treat that as strength for sure. If you are right about your ranges being fairly tight, you should be ahead of any "fancy" guys that are trying to play back at you anyway.
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04-10-2015 , 01:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnny_on_the_spot
this is basically just an extreme TAG style. this is usually a style i recommend to people who are having problems (usually people who limp/call too much and get caught in big hands with marginal holdings) because it makes playing way more straight forward.

at 1/2 you're probably not going to run into enough resistance from good enough players to really have to change what your doing. mostly because there are not enough good players to figure out what your doing and exploit it. if they are good enough, they are usually trying to get to 2/5 and will be gone soon enough

your biggest leaks are going to really be overaggressive situations and folding incorrectly. when you get JJ/TT in the LP/SB/BB and someone raises from UTG, it's really not correct to 3bet someone with those hands because their range is way ahead of yours, so you only fold out worse and get better to call/4bet you. on the other side, folding those holdings is not really correct except to the nittiest players because you're still going to be playing against someone who has broadway nonpair hands in their range and low runouts will be yours. this really only leaves calling, which your avoiding.

as far as limping big pairs or AK, why? you're creating an image of a guy who always raises, so why care about a limp range? just bet AA/KK/QQ/AK because it should blend in when you raise QJs or 77 or A5s or whatever. thats the beauty of having a wide raising range and 3bet range, it makes determining when you actual have QQ+ way more difficult. when someone 4bets you because they get frustrated from your constant 3betting, you can 5bet them with your strongest holdings and fold your weaker ones and they will call it a cooler when you win AA vs their JJ but it's not really a cooler because you're not stacking off with QJs but set it up so they have no clue what to do
good statement
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04-10-2015 , 02:41 PM
I used to play like this and it was extremely profitable against the $1-2 players I was playing against, but it was utterly incomplete when I started to play against good tournament players. Now "tournament mode" doesn't really work in $1-2. I think there's a place for what you're doing, but if you want to move up, it's not going to be effective.
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