1/2 NL. 9-handed game.

Villain (Mid position) (250): Has played for 1 hour. Positionally-aware. Occasionally makes a single-street bluff or semibluff with a bet of 25 or less. Has never bet more than 50 on any street, except once preflop with AA.

Hero (BB) (900): Has stacked several players over last 5 hours. Villain has not seen this, but of course he can see Hero's stack. Other than showing down big pots with the nuts, has not shown down many hands.

Rest of table: Tight-passive or loose-passive. Virtually never bluffs.



Villain is first to enter in mid position, raises to 4. All call around to the Hero, who has 99 and calls as well.

6 players. Pot is 21. Flop JT9. SB checks, Hero checks. Villain bets 10. After him, 3 players call. Hero raises to 35. Villain reraises to 60 total. The field folds, Hero calls.

Heads up. Pot is 170. Turn A. Hero checks. Villain bets 75, with 111 behind.

Hero?



Thoughts:


Result:

Pre is fine. Don't like 3-betting. Villain's raise size is super small, but it sounds like he's playing fairly snug and you're also oop and don't really want to play a large multi-way pot with 99. And with all the callers and loose/passive tendencies, flat is good.

You should donk into this flop. This flop texture crushes everyone. Any Q or 8 has an OESD. Any J, T or 9 has a pair, pair + draw, two pair, etc. Hearts has the flush draw, even a K or a 7 is a gut shot and could be part of hands with a gut shot + draw, etc.

Given the texture and multi-way action, there's no certainty that villain will c-bet.

Anyway, you checked and villain bet $10 and got like 3 callers. So now the pot is like $61. Your raise is WAY WAY too small. $55-$60 is better.

You've played the hand pretty weird so far. It's pretty hard to comment on it from here on out. I mean, so now villain comes on top of your super small raise with a super small 3-bet you on the flop. We're kind of in crazy town. I guess calling the flop is fine.

The turn is a check/fold. Your read on this guy is important. And the Ah is pretty much the nut easiest card to check/fold. He won't keep betting with QQ-KK. As stupid as his flop 3-bet sizing is, it is a flop 3-bet, and against this guy, that sounds v strong.

I don't like the raise and calling a 3-bet on the flop.
If you have V on a draw - you should shove to make him pay for it.
If you think you're beat, you should lay down.

On a JT9 board, KQ & 78 is well within V's range - with KhQh being the nuts.
Most V's won't bet JT on the turn - so it seems more likely that V has a nutted hand.

You could call the turn and hope the board pairs - but you're only 20% or so... and with a $75 bet - you'd have to see a 375 profit to call - so no, you really don't have implied odds. Plus, who's to say that V will call if you hit a 9, J, T or A?

This board is way too wet to think you're ahead. Since you didn't think you were ahead on the flop, go with your gut and fold the turn.

To many callers + wet board = find a better spot in another hand. If you're not going to raise enough to narrow the field, then be ready to let your tripps go on a flop like this one.

Probably the right answer but this not the reason

OP, you have already answered this....never a bluff.

And a typical play from a low stakes 1/2 player that *thinks* they're smart/cute showing you the Q, of course he didn't show you the other card -which was the K of hearts.


Soooooo typical of this type of player to wanna be all trappy/tricky, or in this case cute and amusing.

The OP didn't have trips, he had a set, big difference

I like a 3bet preflop to about 35. This will thin the field and get you a better gauge on villain's hand. If he's positionally aware he may very well put you on a very big hand here since you are in the BB and may likely fold a couple of high cards. If he 4 bets, you can easily fold.

As played fold the turn.

Pretty much hate everything here.

There's a ton of dead money in the pot. I'd consider squeezing here sometimes with ATC but with a value hand, I'm 3b for sure. $25 sounds about right. I expect to not get called a fair amount of the time.

As played sucks. I guess I'm potting it for value since it's soaking wet but you probably have the best hand here. c/r is WAY too small.

Blech, basically I just think this hand is a mess.

Im almost always 3betting a lol$4 open with 99 with my image/stack/table condition in that spot preflop. I rather take initiative than set mining on a weak passive table.

I dont like the flop play for two reasons:
1) your checkraise was waaay too small when there are so many callers of the cbet, with the cbet being so weak.
2) when you got 3bet on the flop, i would shove > fold > call

I don't think a 3-bet is horrible, but I really prefer a flat.

OP suggested that the initial raiser is fairly tight and that some of the table plays quite loose/passive. A 3-bet to $25 in a 6-way multi-way pot is going to get some callers, and while villain raised small, we don't know what that means. If our 3-bet to $25 gets 3 callers, we're oop with an effective SPR around 2 with 99 and we have to check/fold a lot of boards.

Had this actually limped to us, I'd agree with the 3-bet. But it didn't, there is a raise, albeit small. That coupled with a loose/passive dynamic makes the 3-bet less profitable. The money in the pot might not be smart money, but it isn't dead if it's not folding often enough. I think these dynamics should lessen our desire to 3-bet without a more premium hand.

These dynamics should also increase our implied odds when we make a set. So I'm really happy calling here. I think it's less profitable to play a large multi-way pot oop with a hand like 99 with a low SPR.

Nice post Snowball, agree. Another side effect of 3 betting with nines here is that i am starting to see the benfits of having a "wide" 3 bet range, so that my villains i play with regurarly cant autoput me on KK/AA or AK when i 3 bet pre.

This was played weird all around. A lot of people may not agree, but I would have reraised this preflop. A $4 flop is basically a limp. You are ahead of the tables range so bump it up to $30.

The flop pretty much hits any range of hands that would have limp-called. I'd bet 2/3 - 3/4 of whatever the pot was if you raised PF. As played, bet $20-25 on the flop. C/R to $35 was too small you gotta go to $50 to get some draws out of there.

I didn't think you could be raised from $35 to $60 but whatever. As played, I would have just shoved over the top. I don't know what the equity calculation would be like here but it looks like an OESD with backdoor FD from V. Whoever said he has KQs lol.. don't think he is only calling $4 with KQs.

The problem with a 3bet pf at a table with lots of loose-passives is that you're going to go into a flop multi-way oop with a hand that has virtually no show down value unimproved. I'm also confused by the raise size. This could be a variation of a l/rr. Therefore, I prefer a call to a raise.

I'd donk bet the flop though. It is way too wet to let all these people see a free card.

Thanks, everyone, these are some really good replies.

Let me give a rundown of what people are saying so far.


Preflop
In the actual hand, Hero limped.

Some say limp is best because Hero is out of position, and because the players are loose callers. This is also the assessment I made at the table.

A few suggested a squeeze play here. Now that it's been mentioned, I think a squeeze is worth consideration. It is certainly possible that everyone would fold. However, the bet would have to be relatively large to gain a decent chance at taking down the pot at this table. Probably a bet of 40 would be required; a bet of 25 would almost certainly get a few callers at this table. That said, does this sufficiently downgrade the squeeze play?


Flop
In the actual hand, Hero check-raised the Villain directly to his left.

Yeah, I think so. During the hand, my assessment was that Villain was a frequent c-bettor, and so a check-raise was likely to succeed. However, Villain's c-bets mostly went into pots that were 3-handed or less. The multiway pot would likely have let Villain check down if he didn't have the monster that he probably had. A donk-bet of 20 or 30 would be good here, I think; and given the check-raise, I like the big bet size of 55 or 60.

Some are saying to shove the 4th bet. Are you guys sure? Hero is heads-up vs. a Villain who has shown significant strength. From what Villain hands does Hero extract value?


Turn
In the actual hand, Hero folded.

A few have argued that the fold was correct. I don't see anyone saying that the fold was incorrect.

What if the turn were a 2, for a board of JT92. Would Hero be correct to donk-bet the turn?

Raise pre. I consider the raise to 4 a limp.

As played fold turn.

"Who" says limping a pp is the good play here??? Build a pot, so that when you do hit, it's a pot worth winning. I raise every single pocket pair preflop, and call most raises with pp's unless the raise is massive or stacks are short. Sets are one of the most deceptive hands you can hold. No one ever see's them coming unless you find a way to play your cards face up. Raise a standard amount pre with these. At 1/2, a ton of non-thinking villains are willing to stack 2 pair and overpairs a lot, and I mean a LOT of the time. Flush draws call a fair amount as well. Sure, you have to worry about better sets some of the time, but these are just coolers and cannot really be avoided without solid reads. Raise pre. That's my main point here.

You raise every pocket pair from any position at a 9 handed table? That seems like you hate money. Especially sitting with a bunch of loose-passive players. I'd rather raise ATC on the button in that scenario.

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Who says I'm playing with loose passive players? Im playing with a sea of fish who overvalue, make bad moves (like the one above) and think on the first level. Yes, when you get 3-6 callers on many of your raises preflop or when youre 300bb deep and playing with an over aggressive lagtard who will ship tptk it becomes extremely profitable. I don't hate money, I love it. ATC on the button is a little wide, wouldn't you say? Why would you honestly rather do that?

+1 to most of this.


I sometimes feel pretty alone with my statement- but i usually like to raise up the pot with the hands i play, in order to build a pot and not to forget the most important thing: fish makes bigger and alot more costly mistakes in raised or 3 bet pots!


If we only limp along we dont give the fish the opportunity to execute those big and costly mistakes.

We're not limping, we're calling a raise.

And sure, fish may make more (or bigger) mistakes in 3-bet pots, but they will have position on you in this hand. If you played "fish" 24x7 in a game that allowed them to always have position on you every hand, you would lose.

I of course got that in this particular hand- my statement in the post you quoted from me was generally talking.

Gotcha, my mistake.

No problem man, really appreciate your posts here on the forum so keep em coming

Anyone saying this is an auto 3b pre is being results oriented. We need to know a lot more about the table dynamics to understand the proper play pre.

Also if you are playing with weak passive players OR players who can never fold TP post flop raising this from the BB is pretty terrible IMO.