this question is for the winning forum LAGs. did you start out playing LAG, losing at first, then winning? or did you start out playing TAG?

as they say, experience is the best teacher. and the biggest winners in live NL are good LAGs.

but, how do you get experience playing LAG if you never play LAG?

me, i'm a noob to NL. still learning the basics. have less than 100 hours total live NL time.

at 1/3 i buy in for 100 bb and no more. who knows what my actual preflop stats are but if i had to guess they would be something like 15% VPIP 10% PFR, with too high flop agg, ok turn agg, and too low riv agg. i'm sure i dont bluff enough.

i figured i would start by playing this way, and once i know how to handle every situation "perfectly" (whatever that means) with TPTK/GK, overpairs, and sets, then move on to expand my range.

this strategy works ok if the table is loose passive or OMC type nitty. however when a decent LAG or 2 sit down the strat falls apart as your range gets polarized too much and the LAGs have open season on you to attack all non A/K/Q boards. when deep your bets are essentially dead money on a lot of boards.

obv my goal is ultimately to get really good at live NL (I think GG is the only one in this forum who is satisfied playing the same way and having the same winrate his entire life, lol). is playing a TAG style too handcuffing to get a real feel for how to play LAG? it is better for a player's development to take their knocks playing LAG, even if they lose at first, to get more experience at navigating more postflop spots? or should i continue to play TAG until i get so "good" playing 15% VPIP that I never question a move i make?

If you have an unlimited amount of resources (e.g. cash) and a limited amount of time, it's probably better to start as a LAG.

If you have an unlimited amount of time and a limited amount of resources (e.g. cash), it's probably better to start as a TAG.

If the table plays 30 hands per hour and you get to see a free flop from the BB once in a while, that means you're playing 5 hands per hour. Over a 4 hour session, that's 20 hands. It's pretty tough to learn something from that limited amount of hands unless you're using the rest of your time to observe what's happening at the table.

First of all, “the biggest winners in live NL are good LAGs” is not an uncontroversial statement.

Second of all, I’ve been playing poker for a long time now. And in my experience, good LAGs don’t start out as bad LAGs. That’s the wrong framework to think about how to play. I know because I used to do this and I got nowhere.

What you should be doing when you play is studying your opponents and looking to see what kinds of mistakes they make and how you can maximize your winnings against them. It’s not about style, it’s just about profit. You’re supposed to do whatever wins the most money.

A good LAG is someone who is far enough along in this process that their ability to spot or induce mistakes can overcome widening their range for small bets, AND who understands when to stop putting money in when they’re weak (that is the difference between a good LAG and a bad LAG).

Also, a good LAG is a good player first,
and a LAG second. So it should be the case that they won’t play LAG in the wrong lineup.

I think any winning player or most winning players start as TAG's and slowly open up their game and become LAG. If you start as a LAG you'll light so much money on fire and be so clueless on fundamentals you'll be lost. Like most things in life you want to start with a solid foundation - I started as a nitty TAG but eventually opened up as I became more confident in my abilities. Whether poker or another industry its all the same - you follow the basics in the beginning and as you become more adept that's when you shine.

Winning LAGs require actual work at the table.

Winning TAGs can probably just sit there and watch shows on the phone.

It’s not hard to win in LLSNL, but to crush is another story.

If you want to be a soul crushing llsnl player, practice playing every hand blind pre flop.

If you can win playing that way, you’ll be a crusher.

The most sucessful LAGs make their money in deep-stacked and super-deep stacked games, by exploiting their opponents.

Many of them are also very familiar with GTO and/or standard TAG strategy - and capable of playing it themselves.

by playing LAG. Just start opening up your range, LAG play works best at passive tables with lots of limping. As long as nobody is 3betting you then assemble a range that is reasonably ahead of their calling range after you've seen a few showdowns with them. If they're turning up on showdown with 69s and J7o then it's game on, start raising with 89o, A9s, etc. Basically anything that is likely going to connect better than they will when you start making value bets.

Isn't the old story that everyone starts out TAG (cuz they're just getting their feet wet / are inexperienced / etc.), then go LAG (they've got their feet under them now and are feeling (over)confident), but then eventually revert back to TAG (cuz they found their results kinda weren't as great at LAG as they thought they'd be and with higher variance to boot)?

I think I've ~sorta taken that route as well. I mean, certainly nothing crazy with the "LAG" period (and I use that term extremely loosely), but just a tad more looser and aggressive than, frankly, I was personally capable of pulling off. But it is possible every stage is an overreaction to results over the previous lol small 1000 - 2000 hours sample size.

G2233hoursintomySuperNitperiodandit'sgoing...justo k,nothingmore,nothinglessG

I don't buy that. In my opinion, there are 2 kinds of new players--one who thinks the key to the game is showing up with value (starting out as a bad TAG), and one who thinks the key is running people over (a bad LAG).

Each kind of player has a different learning curve to get better but I think it all coalesces in the end. Good players don't have styles, they have gears.

I think most players go from loose passive (fish), tight passive, lag and then tag. Especially in a fr live high raked setting, i think a tag style still will win the most money long term.

Hard not wanting to support these kind of posts because they benefit the game in so many ways.

But the truth is that the wider your range is, regardless of your opponent, the harder it is to play profitably. It takes actual work that develops into skill to be able to know how to exploit loose opponents.

Yet, most people think it can be solved just by better range and some math. Don’t get me wrong, I love it.

A LAG exploits bad loose-passive players the same way a TAG does: By still having a range advantage (albeit smaller) and taking advantage of their passivity.

As long as you're able to handle variance (financially and emotionally) it's not that much more difficult to play against somebody with VPIP 80 who calls down every gutshot and only raises the nuts.

Where LAGs run into trouble, especially beginners, is in pots that have one or more TAGs in them which means they're at a range disadvantage. Navigating that takes skill. But if you're sitting at a table where a 50% VPIP LAG style is still the by far tightest approach of any player, things look very different.

Not disagreeing, but most people who choose to play tighter are probably not those who can handle the variance.

Relatively speaking, if you are playing the tightest of any player at the table, you're playing TAG.

one issue is that i lack confidence in certain spots due to lack of experience in getting in situations for which I have little to no prior experience. such as unusually big bet sizes, bad flops, playing vs. LAGs, etc.

like in an 8 hour session, playing nit-TAG, i might play about 30 hands outside of the blinds (assuming 25 hands/hr). of those i face a weird spot for maybe 10% hands. im not sure i am learning much if i only face 3-4 weird spots per session.

another issue is that, in my admittedly limited experience, playing TAG if there are LAGs on the table is actually quite difficult, because your range is constrained and their range is nebulous -- "all war is deception" = Sun Tzu.

That's exactly the point. Playing loose takes skills - it's not a manipulation of "playing tighter than my opponent."

Good profitable LAGs exploit TAGs probably more so than a passive fish. Just think of all the players that give you trouble? Are they nits, TAGs, or LAGs?

Passive fish can actually be difficult to exploit because there is so little fold equity against them.

LAGs run into trouble against tighter players because they don't know how to read board texture, tendencies, and adjust accordingly.

Funny, didn't see this post until after I replied. But this is exactly my point about how TAGs are afraid of good LAGs, and good LAGs love having bunch of TAGs at the table.

100 hours is literally nothing.

Your biggest failure is probably thinking that experience is gained through playing your own hands.

I would consider myself a LAG in most lineups that I play in, especially in the home games where I put in the most of my volume. That’s because these games are full of passive players who are not 3 betting/4 betting enough pre and they allow me to take control of the hand through a raise. Instead of playing back at me, players will just call and hope to hit a flop or try to trap me with strong hands. Needless to say this is a bad strategy and easy to play against.

As others have said, it is important to be able to adjust your strategy based on the lineup that you. I started as a super tag, but as you get more comfortable with barreling good runouts and exploiting face up ranges, you can widen your range pre and profitably play a lot more hands.

More hands played profitably = more money and more winning.


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Don't worry about what style you are playing, let your style find you. You're style will be best defined by your own strengths and weaknesses. Good LAGs and good TAGs are both profitable but go about it from different POVs. Lags are involved in more spots and fight for more pots, they make their money b/c people will call them down lighter b/c their range is wider. Good TAGs OTOH play tighter and have more value in their range, they make their money when people fold to their bluffs. It's 2 sides to the same coin, both styles can be very profitable but if you can't play the entirety of the style correctly you will lose money which brings me back to my original point, let your style find you. Work on you game, continue to study and you'll become more comfortable pushing the edges. Your style will evolve naturally to wherever it needs to go

TAG vs LAG is the wrong frame. The proper way to do it is to understand the basic contours and the logic of a GTO strategy. Once you do that, you can understand in which ways your opponents deviate and in what ways they can be exploited.

If you blindly adopt a LAG strategy, you re adopting a strategy that can be successful if it stumbles upon the right players who are exploited by this strategy, but you don't have the tools to understand what's going wrong and adjust if you are playing vs opponents in which the LAG strategy is ill suited for.

Last, but not least, don't burn money in live poker trying to play LAG. Deposit $50 in an online site and play a few thousands of hands experimenting and getting experience for cheap.

Not at all. Ime, most players start out passive and more often loose not tight. They are playing their hands for what they are or could be. They are not even considering their opponent

I am not even certain I agree with the premise LAGS win the most. Maybe for the very good LAGS. But honestly good TAGS (not the best, just good) destroy bad, mediocre even decent LAGS if they can handle the variance.

The real truth is the really good LAGS understand and can play TAG 2hen it is correct to do so. Same true for really good TAGS. They understand LAG and can/do change speeds.

Who will win more over time depends on the tables. Prolly on average LAGS will have bigger wins but also suffer higher variance. At most low stakes tables, a really good tag will win far more often but usually not as big. Which one does better over time will depend the nature of the tables.

Heads up if he can handle the variance, LAG prolly has advantage. But at full ring, the dynamics are very different. The one that adjust to the actual tables is the one who will do the best. The the best of both can adjust.

You set up a false choice. You want to compare good lags to tags. The other falsity you injected is lag against table of tags. We all know trying to be the best of style X where everyone is competent and playing X is difficult. Position dominates and chips tend to move around the table. Whereas a good counter player causes the others problems.

I look at it this way. I would rather have a good lag to my left than a good tag. But I prefer to be left on both.

The thing that helps most lags is simply the tables play them too passive.

lol - I am not even sure you can follow what you’re saying.

Anyhow - TAGs in LLSNL are predictable and they think everything can be figured out by some simplistic mathematical approach.

Anyone, regardless of label, that understand such approach can pretty easily exploit it.

If that means ATC, then ya, I guess that means the dude is a LAG.

It's remarkable how much action TAG's can get. Most of the crushers at my room are definitely TAG, with only like 2 good LAG's I've ever seen. Every time the TAG's show up with TPTK minimum or already hit their nut draw when the money goes in. Fish will even berate the TAG's "oh god here comes Aces again" and yet still call with trash because they just cant help themselves, or just dont realize how bad their relative hand strength is. They seem to think if the flop is T95hh then they should ship 300BB's with JJ, when the TAG inevitably calls with a set then they think they just got unlucky.