This got brought up in dgiharris' recent big post but wasn't addressed after a couple of posts, so I want people's input on this.

Let's say you're on the cutoff or button and you have at least a few limpers in front of you, the standard passive-weak type. You look down at a decent, but sort of marginal and possibly trouble hand; for example, QTs, KJ, 55, etc. A couple of questions when it's your turn to act:

1. Are you raising or just calling in these spots? What factors will dictate whether you raise or call?

2. If you raise, how much are you raising to? If someone behind you raises, how much are we willing to call (I know this question is vague, so assume villain is a straightforward TAG, not spewy but not especially creative)?

3. What's our plan for the flop in these cases? C-bet always or check if we miss and it's multiway?

Sorry if these questions are not specific enough, feel free to apply them to specific spots and respond then. Thanks for the input.

1) 55 is raise or limp, KJs or QTs are raise or fold.

2) Raise sizing depends on table dynamics. Probably somewhere around 6-8bb.

3) Depends on board texture and villain tendencies.

1. raising mostly. weak passive players will be obvious on the flop if they hit or miss out playing in position is our job

2. raise 6x-8x bb should fold out or pull in 1. calling a limp raise depends on stack size, raise amount, table image of vill. tag image as stated i fold with Q10-KJ ect and potentially call 55 to stack vill but again that depends on raise size, stacks, and image or could be big spew.

3. im c-betting if checked to me almost 100% of the time . there would have to be a reason not to continue.

1) Limping behind all hands of these types almost always. I feel raising just folds out some of the junk and hurts my equity. Typically fish limp a wide range, but limp/call a bit tighter. I'd rather play multiway against a wide range than 1 or 2 way vs. a tighter range.

2) If I do raise it's typically because I think I have a really good chance of stealing the pot. I don't overuse the play or you lose too much fold equity, but once or twice a session is OK I think if the table is right. I just throw inmy standard raise, usually 5X + 1 per limper, and maybe throw in an extra BB or two if I think it will help with fold equity. I'm pretty much never calling a limp/reraise here.

3) Fit or fold. If I hit top pair with a KJ type hand I may fold to a bet depending on the board and other action, but will proceed very cautiously regardless. If it's checked to me I will value bet a weak top pair a bit more confidently.

For me the main question would be what are the tendencies of the limpers / table; do they limp/fold or limp/call? If they limp/call, then raising here every time is burning money; I'd rather simply call and play postflop poker. If the limpers are limp/foldy and blinds are tight, then I'm on board with raising, getting it HU, c-betting every flop, taking down the pot and buying a hot dog.

Note that I used to think that my image was also important in these decisions, and that I could use the fact that I haven't played a hand in two orbits to force a bunch of folds even at a loose limp/cally table. I now realize that image ain't that important at those types of tables.

G"Geewhiz,thatguyhasn'tplayedahandinhalfanhourandn owhe'sraising,hemusthaveagoodhand.Ihaveacraphand.I call."G

Folding KJs or QTs in LP for one bet at a table where everyone will insta-stack off with two pair (let alone possibly TP) when we hit our straight/flush/whatever is horrible, imo. Obviously these are not good hands where we hit TP in a multiway pot, so we'll be treading carefully when we do (and we should be able to get away from out hands thanks to our position), but there's no way we should be folding these in LP.

Gcallingisjustasunratedasraisingisoverrated,methin ksG

You quote those hands as being very stackable, but how are you going to get stacks in when the pot on the flop is 10 bucks and you have 198 behind?

It should be easy to stack.

Ex 1 (cooler situation where villain flops two pair / set and we flop better):

Pot is $10 and we both have $200 behind. Villain bets $10 and we raise to $30. Worse case scenario is villain just calls and checks the turn; pot is now $70 and we have $170 left behind. We bet a minimum bet of $35, villain calls. Pot is now $140 leaving us with less than a PSB of $135 behind. EZ shove, as no villain is folding two pair / set here. This pot commitment becomes even easier if villain 3bets the flop, or if another caller or two comes along on the flop or if we bet slightly more on the turn.

Ex 2 (villain flops two pair / set and we flop a draw which comes in on turn):

After calling the flop bet, the pot is at least $30 (worst case scenario HU). We raise the $20 turn bet to $60 when our draw hits. Worse case scenario (other than villain somehow managing to fold his two pair / set) is villain just calls, so pot on the river is now $150 and we've got $130 left. Again, EZ shove.

Methinks it's pretty easy to get 100 BB stacks in over 3 streets, especially when villain can't fold very good hands. Villains who can't fold very good hands will even pay off large river over bets (2x pot bets, etc.) so I don't think this is going to be an issue.

GcluelessNLnoobG

And who says we have to stack every time? I think it's still +ev even if we only get 30-40BB from villains. Getting 40BB off a villain would be a 40:1 return on our preflop investment. With a 5X raise now the best we can hope for is usually around 20:1.

So we're limping broadways to hopefully cooler someone. Great plan. You do know what cooler means, right?

1. I'm raising all of them at this type of table. When you limp, the blinds can't make much of mistake. You want to put your villains in a position to make a mistake. When you limp, you tell people what you have: Some mediocre hand you don't want to invest much money in unless you hit big. And yeah, yeah, yeah, you l/rr AA. That happens once every 8 hours of so (less often if you're me). I'll take my chances that this isn't the one out of 40 times you actually have AA.

2. At a 1/2 table, I'm going about 5 or 6 BB. It depends on what the table's resistance to calling is. I don't want it to go MW. I'll drop it a bit for 2/5, again depending on the table dynamics.

3. Flop texture matters more to deciding to cbet than anything else. Some flops I'll cbet 100%. Others, I'll check 100%. After that comes villain characteristics. A fit or fold player will see more cbets. A passive calling station sees less.

^This. And of course the effective stacks matter. You need to be more specific. If there is a short stacker behind me or if I'm 300bb deep it changes everything.

So you'd rather fold them than call with them?

True that you don't make the blinds make a preflop mistake, and I'd definitely want to raise my premium hands here to make them make that mistake. But with speculative hands, I'm cool with passing on the blinds making a preflop mistake in order for them to make huge postflop mistake.

I think this is the key here. If you're going to go multi-way, then reverting to limping would be fine here, no? Or are you amping up your raise size so that you'll guarantee HU? But it seems to me if you amp up your raise size you're treading a fine line of *perhaps* getting it HU vs *perhaps* going 4 way to the flop anyways vs just stealing the blinds with hands that have huge postflop potential.

GcluelessNLnoobG

1.) It depends on villain tendencies and stack sizes.
Let's say 4 limpers to me and I have KJs. If 3 of those 4 tend to fold to a raise, or if they do call they are fit/fold post flop, I am raising every time. Same with any hand in the range of big broadway (KQo) and middle/upper suited connectors.
I will admit that I do tend the limp the 55 type of hands, only because of 2 below.

2.) I would usually be raising 7-8 bbs here, again table dependent. I am folding most of my range above to just about any 3bet, unless the raise is small and the villain is really deep. Ex. If villain and I are 350bbs deep and he min 3bets me when I am holding 9-10s or 77. KQo and the like are probably getting mucked.

3.) Villain/flop texture dependent. If the 3 fit/fold guys who always donk bet when they hit a flop check to me, I am betting. If Mr. Passive McPassivePants who never raises an ace pre and never folds one post checks to me on ace high board, I am less likely to cbet, especially if multiway.

Interesting responses in this thread that I was not entirely expecting. I come from a limit background, and there it seems like these hands are usually limped behind, not raised.

I'm curious on the merits of raising. It seems to me like this situation will come up almost every other orbit. If we are constantly raising late like that isn't it exploitable? I know most people don't like to talk about image or balancing at low stakes, but I think raising that often is going to get us into some trouble. I think we fold a lot of "better" hands if the raises are kept infrequent, such as maybe 1 out of 3 times in this spot. We may push villain of KQ, Ax, etc. But as we overdo this raise then we get called lighter. I don't really balance at the tables, because I'm usually always calling here. But I do see LAG's that definitely have their raises called much lighter than mine, so clearly people are paying attention to raise frequency and adjusting accordingly. It seems like raising everytime here is a good way to get painted as a LAG (not always bad, I know) and is going to make these hands a lot more difficult to play postflop than they would be if we limped. I feel like I make a lot more by value betting against weaker pairs and draws than I would trying to take it down heads up with a c-bet.

I'm thinking of trying to raise more in this spot if you guys do it, but am looking for a little more in the way of why it's the right play. I'm sure it would help me get a bit more action on my big hands, but make these hands less profitable. Does one make up for the other? Teach me oh wise ones!

I also come from a limit background where, ironically, I play a lot of these hands a lot more aggressively preflop. The reason for that is in limit we don't have huge implied odds like we do in NL; we need to pound pound pound every single ounce of value every single chance we get in limit (ex. I'm raising suited broadway and 88+ every single time in LP vs limpers in limit and not doing so is a HUGE mistake). In NL, we can pass on a street or two of value cuz our implied odds are so big; we will usually always have the opportunity (especially against poor players with smallish stack sizes) to make up for that on one single bet later on. IMO.

ETA: Ha, if I could narrow down the difference between my live limit game and my live NL game (on basically every single street), it would be as simple as this: Limit? "I raise". NL? "I call". Obviously a generalization, but I don't think it's too far off the mark.

I think it is the right way with the right table. Once every two orbits means throwing a late position raise every 40 minutes or so. I am sure it has lead to me getting called lighter at times, but I try to be very specific about which limpers I am going after and why. If the 1-2 players capable of calling and the floating a cbet have limped in, then I probably won't raise. But like I said in my response, if the 3 guys who play complete fit/fold and play their hands straight forward limp in, then sure, I am raising them up every shot I get it.

Think about it like this. 3 fit/fold types limp to me on the button, and I hold K-Js. I know the blinds are tight, and are unlikely to call.
I raise to $15. Blinds fold, 2 f/fers call. Pot is roughly $45 (minus rake). How often do we have to take this down on the flop for this to be a profitable play in the long run? If I am not playing players I think I can take a pot like this from postflop, I look for another table.
Factor in the times we do hit gin, and that these raises do let us disguise our monsters a bit, and this is a very +EV play over time.

No, I'd rather raise with them. I have a hard time thinking of a time that I would limp these hands on the button with several limpers behind.

One of the few times I won't is if someone who I have observed never limps suddenly limps UTG and is acting suspiciously like the cat who swallowed the canary.

Ah yes, the old UTG LAG limp. I actually freakin limped KK behind it once and stacked him on a K high flop.

I haven't played much live but when I did I heard so many players saying 'I hate AK I never raise with it' which basically means they wait for someone else to raise and then call.

For that reason I'd be very wary of raising KJ. I'd personally prefer 55 or QTs and raising or folding would depend on the players at the table.

It really depends on your image as to what you do. I'm perceived as nitty (because I'm not splashing around in EP or even MP). Therefore, my raises pf get some level of respect post flop. While the villains might go, "let's see a flop," they're also thinking, "If I don't connect on the flop, I'm not paying him off."

The thinking behind JustinJude's post is pretty much exactly why I wrote this post. It may seem standard to raise with these hands on the button, but a lot of the times you see people limp with hands like AQ/AK and you don't find yourself in a good position when you raise KTs on the button and get two callers with a K-high flop. I think it's an excellent point that whether they are the limp/fold or the limp/call player has a ton to do with your decision.

But I do think as long as you have even just two callers to the flop, you'll find yourself in an awkward spot if you raise with 66 and the flop comes J-7-2. It looks safe, but it's so common for people to limp-call with hands like J-T, AJ, etc. Really trying my best not to be results oriented, but to the passive limpers, AK basically equals KT in hand strength; i.e. "call if I hit, fold if I miss."

Then raise ATC on the button, and c-bet half pot. check/fold if they call.