THE FOLLOWING HAND is exactly why I shoved both hands in the OP:

1/2, I open AhAs 15 in MP, CO and BB call

Flop (45): Qh 4h 3s
BB donks 25 (with 125 behind), I just call planning to shove all but Q turns, CO folds

Turn (95): Jd
BB donks 50, I shove, he calls 75 more and shows QJo.

River bricks and I muck.

That's quite not the same situation, really. You have an overpair in SPR of 3 vs a donkey, you should be GII'ing over 1 or two streets vs him, pretty std.

Imagine wanting to shove to avoid a 3 outer and then posting about it like its proof of anything.

Wow sick beat. Better shove every time you’re ahead to make sure this sick cooler doesn’t happen again.

You think he’s just stacking off with TP3K to a flop raise? Maybe your games play differently but in my games, they love to donkbet/fold these hands to “find out where they’re at”.

People don’t fold top pair like ever, let alone after putting in 1/3 of their stack. Sounds like you should be raising all of their donk bets with air if they’re folding TP on the flop

Lol... one more burn thanks to slowplaying:

$300 eff , Open QTo in CO to 15, BTN nit and BB fish call

Flop (45): AQTr
BB donks 20, I call, CO calls (alarm bells)

Turn (105): 2x
BB donks 30, I call, CO calls

River (195): Kx
BB donks 50, I fold, CO raises to 100, BB calls

CO has JT FTW, BB has A4o....

AQT ad I have QT... I'm bombing all streets.

Most of the time you get paid.
Sometimes you lose.
+EV

Sometimes I check river.

Doesn't make sense to slow roll that flop.
Most donks can't let go of A and you are letting straight draws have a cheap look.
You know most guys would have some kind of paint cards here most of the time.

This is not a flop I would slow play

Raise flop obv. Raise turn obv. Probably shouldn’t be raising QTo 5x either but that’s another story.

grunch

hand 1
--------
seems like a clear flat call when you have the spades as well.

hand 2
--------
I don't really like your line much at all.

As played on the turn, I think the jam is an overplay since you're not even guaranteed to have the best hand here and when called, they'll have bigger sets a lot. Just call his turn raise.

Momo,


You wanted your opponents to fold in those hands?

You sound just like the terrible players who show their nutted hand and say “I’d rather just take it down now, pot’s big enough” rather than risk losing the pot even if continuing is a very +EV spot.

I’m actually trying to hear that my jam OTT is an overplay. He never bets $50 with a single Qx OTT there.

And the QTo hand, I wasn’t slowplaying, I was just afraid of the nitty overcaller behind me.

The recurring them in this thread is that you're playing scared poker.

"Nobody ever bets $50 with just top pair"

Come on man.

The key difference between the hands in your op and the hands you posted in follow-up is that in op you have the unbeatable nuts and you fast play them...in the last hands you posted you have vulnerable holdings and you slow play them.

Flip that logic around and you’ll be fine.

Haha.. you’re actually almost correct..

and against nits they dont play big pots, so you either bluff them out with bigger bets or bet smaller to milk them. and be careful they dont catch on to your play of them.

Losing to QJ isn’t a reason to start fast playing. If you are folding out a Q when you raise then raising AA isn’t a good idea. If you aren’t folding out a Q. You are getting stacked regardless.

I agree that raising flop isn’t a good idea if I’m folding out Qx, but then shouldn’t I be good enough to sniff out something from his turn bet sizing when a J rolls off? It’s hard to explain my real time read but the guy looked strong when the J peeled off and he doubled his bet size. My experience tells me that he would make a smaller “probe” bet with most single paired Qx hands.

I’m also wondering if calling turn to fold to a river shove may be a good idea. But obv, I’m never doing that since there’s a 2% chance he does that with KQ or missed FDs or has the rare AQ.

Momo,


I respond to some of your posts for two reasons:

1) because you seem like a nice guy who’s sincerely trying to learn and get better

2) because your posts can be confoundingly frustrating. Sometimes you sound like a solid rational thinking experienced player, and other times like you’re brand new to the game. I don’t get it!

The guy bet 25 into 45 on the flop, then bets 50 into 95 on the turn. He’s not showing a ton of strength with a big bet size increase on the turn. He’s simply making a couple of totally standard half pottish bets in a not very big pot. That’s exactly what KQ and AQ do in games like this, and oftentimes what any Q does when not facing any resistance.

As for your turn/river strat, it may sometimes be correct to just call the turn in this spot. But if so, it’s to call the river, not fold it. If you’re calling the turn to fold to a $75 into $195 bet in this spot, then the time to fold is on the turn.

I completely understand what you’re saying. I know I make illogical arguments and assumptions sometimes.

I don’t know how to explain but it was just this vibe I was getting from this type of player who was sitting there all quiet with his $175 stack waiting to catch a big hand.

He’s not looking at a $50 bet as a half pot bet, he’s looking at it like a “$50 bet at 1/2”. Which is big for him.

However, you’re right that I should never be folding to that size.

Given that he showed up worth QJ we know he’s not some huge old man coffee with a nutted donk range; I just don’t see how you can get away from this hand at 3 SPR no matter how good you are.

I’m sure his bet did feel strong to you then, even though it wasn’t very big, maybe you did get some kind of read, but I think there’s also some chance you do what I do where you can get a tad results oriented and then interpret everything that happened in the hand through the lens of the results.

Momo,

The point is not that you shouldn’t be folding there.

It could very much be right to fold to that $50 bet for some of the reasons you said.

But if the $50 into $95 on that turn isn’t a fold, then $75 into $195 on that river should pretty much never be a fold.

I also question your read on this guy. In my experience, the player you’re describing is much more likely to check-call QJ on the flop rather than lead.